"Local conferences actually use within their territory more than 83 percent of the Tithe they take in. Another 2.5 to 3 percent goes as their share for the college/university in their union."

Gary, Could you or Monte explain the difference in the figures that you quote. Does 40% leave the local conference, or the amount stated by Monte on his recent blog entry?

One obvious problem is that most pastors are not pulling their weight. If they earn $50,000 each year, they need to be bringing  into the church people who are going to contribute that much. The labors of the past are supporting the ministers of today. A pastor with a graduate degree is not required to teach and baptize the children of existing members. A pastor who spends his time giving sandwiches to homeless people, working on a graduate degree, and going to meetings is not pulling his weight.

On the other hand, one who takes seriously the counsel of EGW might be. She wrote a chapter on ministering to wealthy people which is part of Ministry of Healing. One or two  wealthy people could easily contribute, to the church, $50,000 each year. If they have been truly blessed by the gospel, they would might gladly do it. The ICOC in Los Angeles was attracting individuals capable of giving large amounts of money to their congregations, thereby sustaining their momentum. 

The lifetime cost of a pastor to the denomination is enormous, considering salary, benefits, and sustentation. Some of these guys are just treading water to reach sustentation. They burned out on "ministry" long before they hit retirement age. Much of the work that pastors do today could easily be done by church members. That's what elders and deacons are for. A pastor may spend 20 hours a week in sermon preparation. Nice work if you can get it--reading books, word processing, sitting in your home office. Of course, the  surrounding community receives zero benefit from his labors.

A guy with a graduate degree is not required to visit the sick or comfort those who mourn. Ideally, his training would prepare him to determine the needs of his community and construct a ministry that would meet their felt needs, thereby bringing them into the church. If pastors are not doing this, they have no legitimate claim to  tithe, living off the fat of the land, while congregations are dying, static, or retrogressing. 

Is the challenge to address the inefficiency of (having these) layers of bureaucracy exacerbated by the fact that the higher levels of the corporate organization, i.e., the higher layers of (the) bureaucracy--the unions, divisions, and the GC itself--are not nearly as impacted by resulting budget/personnel /functional/personal crises as are the local conferences, congregations, and individual members? 

Nothing illustrates the difference between a business and a bureaucracy like a fiscal crisis: a business restructures to survive but a bureaucracy won't until it is staring oblivion in the eye-- and even then it probably won't.  Our church administration is a bureaucracy that has used the claim of "doing ministry" as a universal excuse for poor management for too long. I think a significant portion of the growing fiscal crisis is the result of church members who have a greater desire to support effective ministry than a dollar-drinking bureaucracy.  

Disturbing as a fiscal crisis can be, it is also an opportunity for marvelous transformation and renewal.  It causes us to re-focus on the purpose of the church and decide if we're going to preserve the status-quo or become truly effective in spreading the gospel.  The growing global financial crisis is creating amazing ministry opportunities for those who are willing to follow the Holy Spirit instead of doing the same old thing the same old way.  Having to share a pastor with two or three other churches instead of having a full-time pastor can be a wonderful thing because it forces members to take ownership of the church.  

Perhaps our greatest challenge will be changing our concept of the church from a bureaucracy to a theocracy where each believer is directed and empowered by the Holy Spirit instead of waiting for human direction.  Unfortunately, for a church more familiar with bureaucracy than gift-based ministry, the prospect of such a transformation can be even more threatening than a complete financial collapse of the church structure.  

Hansen, you raise a lot of interesting points - some of which would require a whole new post to address. I would direct you to a post written by J. David Newman about a year ago - he and Monte are far more qualified than I to address this.  I'm not a detail person, I'm a generalist - I deal in principles, not exact figures.  But here is some of what I've learned in my brief tenure as a second career pastor with an administrative/management background:

• First, It costs about $80-85k to support one pastor.  This includes salary, benefits, and overhead costs.
• Next, it takes about $250-265k of tithe to support one pastor.  1/3 to the pastor's wages and benefits package, the other 2/3 to schools, missions, and overhead.
• Finally, research has determined that for a church to maintain, there needs to be one pastor for every 150 attender - preloaded for growth.  so, a church with 300 people, would need three pastors if it expects to grow.

As a church planter, I was able to devote my time to reaching into the community and being relevant.  Over the course of a few years, we attracted a crowd of about 250-300 people, an average weekly attendance of 100, and we baptised 60+ people.  The majority of those attending were previously unchurched.  In addition, we atracted a few large donors that were supporting some incredible ministries.

Though we were one of thefew growing churches in our conference, and though our tithe income was $140k a year (more than enough to support my wage and benefit package, the conference leadership decided to not sustain a full-time pastor at that maturing church - because we weren't bringing in the required $265k.  It was $140k more thanthe conference was bringing in a few years earlier, and far more than some of the rural church districts that had a full-time pastor, but we didn't make our goal.

Upon moving to a traditional two-church district in another conference, I tried to do the things I knew would grow the church.  I devoted my time in outreach and relevant ministry - much like you suggest in your comment.  However, the local church leadership was not happy with that and they complained.  I've now been unemployed for over six months.

In my experience, there are many pastors who would love to do what it takes to reveal God's true character to their community, but many of those men and women are no longer working as fullt-ime pastors.  Many of them are in independent ministries, overseas missions, or have been terminated - like me. 

And many that you cite as being burned out, or not worth their pay, are just trying to keep their heads down and provide for their families.  In many  ways, I don't blame them.  As my family is in very real danger of losing our house, I wonder if it would have been better to have less zeal for the lost - and the invisible people in our churches?  It wouldn't - but now is certainly not a good time to be unemployed.

As one of my mentors is often saying, "The system is getting exactly what it is designed to get."  The Church doesn't want bold and dangerous pastors.  It is self-selecting chaplains.  And then, as if to add insult to injury, we try to be fair.  We give all churches an equal amount of staffing - based on some secret staffing ratio.  So, a church that is growing, gets no more resources than one that is languishing in mediocrity.

Our pastors are overworked taking care of the 99 - they don't have time to go looking for the one.  If they do, they get brow-beat back into submission.  

It isn't the pastors who call the shots - it is our leadership.

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

Excellent point Stephen.  One only need look at the facilities that house some of our administrative offices - and then compare that to the state of many of our churches to see the truth in this wisdom.

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

I have long been a supporter of changing the church structure, however, I would suggest something different than I've been hearing.  Instead of getting rid of the local conferences, I would start by getting rid of the Union level of administration.  Why do I say this?  Because it is my belief that growing the church in West Virginia (Appalachia) is quite different then growing it in neighboring Ohio or Maryland.  I fail to see why the Division office can't address those differences as well was the Union office.  Local conferences remain necessary because local differences require a more specialized approach.  If the conferences aren't maintained there is a very real possibility that some areas will be left behind because the dictums from on-high are too far removed from the realities on the ground.

On the issue of whether or not pastors are pulling their weight, this needs to be addressed.  We pastors always like to point to unmeasurable statistics to justify our existence.  We say, "Oh, my numbers may be down but the church is growing so much spiritually."  Really now!  How is that determined?  Aren't the hard statistics of attendence (actual bodies in church on Sabbath), baptisms that are still active after two years, and tithe better indicators of a pastor's success.  I know there are sometimes factors that can skew these numbers (especially in small churches) but we need to quit making excuses.  Perhaps none of the above administrative changes would be necessary if conference presidents would simply replace those pastors who have a history of lowering the real numbers.  I just hope they exempt me from the analysis. 

Pastor Stewart Pepper                                                                                                                                     www.lewisburgchurch.org

An interesting feature of denominational wage scales is the lack of incentives and reluctance to accept the realities of the market economies in which Church institutions operate. For example, the pastor of 6,000 member Loma Linda University Church, who has to prepare a sermon every week, and is the primary reason why pews are full and tithe keeps pouring in, is drastically underpaid by the Conference relative to other protestant pastors of similar congregations. "Re: Live", the young adult group at the University Church, is bursting with vitality and enthusiasm. Do you think the pastor responsible for that growth is being offered any financial reward or incentive? Not a chance. 

I have heard that most Adventist pastors, given the size and stagnation of their congregations, are overpaid by market comparisons. Why should all pastors be on basically the same wage scale, regardless of performance? The Church has a quasi-civil service system where many of its schools, conferences, and churches have become employee benefit organizations. If our Church institutions, which are creatures of the State, were run as businesses, with compensation benchmarked to productivity, quality, and customer satisfaction, they would be able to more easily discern how to respond to economic forces within the religion marketplace.

I realize this does not sound very missional, but once mission becomes intstitutionalized, the mission becomes secondary to the growth and preservation of the institution. The institution can facilitate the mission, but to a large degree, Christ's church, as a movement, must live and breathe outside of the institution if it is to retain its vitality and passion. Let's stop envisioning the institutional Church as more than it can or should be. It is not an ark, much less the ark, of salvation. Freed from its self-imposed burden of holiness, the Church can function much more efficiently and effectively, incorporating moral and ethical principles into a business model of operation. 

Gary, This discussion brought to mind a topic in the EGW writings known as "hovering." She made numerous statements about this evil  on the part of ministers, to hover around churches, instead of training them to sustain themselves, so that new fields could be entered. The words of condemnation she uttered against these men is unsettling. She described how hovering negatively impacts not only the churches, but the ministers themselves, turning them and their congregations into spiritual dwarfs.

Among many other words of contempt, she mentioned the cry of the unsaved against those ministers who have "hovered" rather than gone forth. A search of the EGW database using the search "hover%"  will produce numerous statements.

The very things these ministers are compelled to do by the powers that be, both local church and administrative, is what leads to burn out among clergy, as well as to retrograde congregations.

People, who have reached a point in their experience with Christ where the only path to spiritual maturity is service, may find their spiritual growth  obstructed by the very ones who should be empowering them for ministry.

For those people, Adventism is a toxic religion. 

www.cleansanctuary.blogspot.com

From brikony

"Aren't the hard statistics of attendence (actual bodies in church on Sabbath), baptisms that are still active after two years, and tithe better indicators of a pastor's success. I know there are sometimes factors that can skew these numbers (especially in small churches) but we need to quit making excuses."

I agree. Too much of the time the success of the pastors is determined on 'How many members do you have and how many have joined'? As opposed to 'Is your church functional as opposed to disfunctional?' 'Have you retained members and are they thriving'? and 'Does everybody get along, love each other and work together'?

This 'rack up the numbers' mentality which fuels the 'evangelize the world to become good Adventists' Revelation Seminars push by the latest suave, public speaking evanglist, usually ends up with half-converted people and a mess that the Pastor is left to struggle with after the evangelist moves on to another batch of seminars.

'Whoo hoo!' a specific church or Conference cheers, 'We have 200 baptisms! what a great, successful Pastor!' Meanwhile they say "THAT church didn't have ANY baptisms! They musn't be so successful and the Pastor really should do more!" When we get past the numbers, however, we'd probably find that the church that didn't have any baptisms probably retains their members better. After a few years, we'd most likely find the church that is so hung up on the numbers back to their original amount as people head out of the church like using a revolving door due to lack of nuturing and not having a stable, functional environment to grow in.

Darrell 

@wfnoel, yes, well said.  This financial crisis does present some great opportunities.  Opportunities I hope we will grasp.  We have some significant questions to ask - but it is my understanding that the socratic method got Socrates killed.  so, those who ask the questions may not survive long enough to hear the right answers.

Sine I no longer have anything to lose, I'll ask the questions:

1. Are we a church-based, Christian organization, or are we a Christian organization that provides private schooling at a below-market price?
2. Are we a mission, or an institution? 
3. If we are a mission, what is the vision for that mission?

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

Thanks for adding to the discussion Dean!  Great points - and thanks for the affirmation.

Yes, I did cite Brauer, but not by name.  He used to tell us that the church is headed towards a brick wall at 100 mph and it doesn't seem as if anyone cares.  I know that Bill Miller is also a man of vision - the hard part, at times, is knowing what bridges to burn and when.  I'm glad to see that Bill is still in the game. I wish Jim was still in the NAD too.

You are correct in saying that a right understanding of our mission will drive the changes necessary.  Asking the right questions, not being afraid of the wrong questions (or the right ones), and doing a true cost-benefit analysis of our budget, human resources (paid and unpaid), and focusing on doing the right things - not necessarily doing things right.  This will begin to move us forward and help us to accomplish the dreams God has placed on our hearts.

Great illustration about schools.  We just need to be courageous enough to ask and answer the questions.

Sometimes, naysayers and critics are accused of being enemies of the system.  This isn't always true.  Sometimes we love the Church, and the people it has reached - or has the potential to reach - enough to speak out.  Confrontation is not a bad thing.  Confrontation of the issues can make us stronger.  Just having the conversation makes us stronger.  We don't have to be afraid - our God is on His throne!

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

Thanks for jumping into the discussion Stewart!

Whether we eliminate Unions, merge Conferences, or turn it all over to the Division is almost a moot point at this stage of the game.  It doesn't even seem like this is a safe topic of discussion for denominational employees.  Yet, not long ago, there was a GC Commission that recommended the use of "Unions of Churches" around the world as an option rather than an exception.  But I don't remember hearing or reading anything about this?

Yes, there are pastors who are not pulling their weight, and there should be in place a systematic progressive discipline system that requires change in order for them to remain employed.  But, by the same token, the denomination cannot ignore validated, peer-reviewed literature on staffing levels, and put the blame on the pastors.

Along the same lines, we need to not be afraid to teach some of Russell Burrill's theology to our members.  Pastors should be trainiers, organizers, and leaders - not necessarily the chief task person of the congregation.

A few years ago, some of us were trying to build some statitistical benchmarks that don't revolve so much around the three Bs - Bodies, Buildings, and Bucks.  How can we better measure discipleship, spiritual disciplines, spiritual maturity, evangelism (not just via the number of baptisms), etc.

How can we better measure and evaluate the truly important parts of Jesus' Commission to us?  If it isn't the 3Bs, what is it?

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

Interesting observations Nathan.  I think you raise some valid points.  The argument against a market-driven wage scale has always been that we don't want to provide incentives to move to a bigger church if the pastor has been called to serve a smaller congregation. 

In fact, as a former church planter, I was unique amongst my peers who were also planting churches with other denominations.  They lived very sacrificially and their salary was based on whatever their new congregation could sustain.  When a church is new, with only a few members, that can be a very sparse life.  My wife and I, on the other hand, had the freedom to build a sustainable foundation before we focused on evangelism - just because of the equity in the Adventist remuneration system.

Also, as you are most likely aware, pastors of those large congregations are frequently well rewarded.  It is a seldom discussed topic, but large, well-endowed congregations often provide liberal expense accounts, family vacations, and sometimes even new cars to their well-loved pastors.  In addition, some of those pastors are given the freedom to accept international speaking engagements, write books, and receive other honorariums.

In fact, if the CEO/pastor of a large church is doing his job right, and most are, he is probably living a much more balanced life than the pastor in SW Wyoming who is trying to serve seven churches in a territory roughly the size of Israel.  Not only is that Wyoming pastor driving close to 3000 miles a month (mostly uncompensated), but he is also preaching every week and expected to be available 24/7 - because he has no other staff to field those calls.

The pastor of a smaller church, or multi-church district, may receive a nice card and maybe a small gift card for pastors appreciation month, but despite their hard work, often sacrificing their own health - and their family's spiritual/emotional health, they are not receiving near the perks of the CEO/pastors.

I know - I used to be that guy in SW Wyoming.  A few years before that I was pastoring Young & Restless Ministries at Azure Hills (now Crosswalk Ministries).  At Y&R we had 500 in attendance every week, but I had a dedicated and loyal staff that made it happen.  In my small churches, despite the high number of retired parishoners, much of the administrative details were not only placed on my plate, but the duplication and redundancy was ludicrous.  Seven churches means seven board meetings, seven nominating committee processes, and seven sets of political/patriarchial/matriarchial traditions.

These are all issues that need to be tackled by our denominational leadership.  If an organization is facing financial pressures - it doesn't do anyone any good to blame the employees.  It is management that is setting the tone, crafting the SOPs, and developing the systems.  They are the ones who need to step up to the plate and make the tough calls.

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

Well said Hansen.  I tried to raise this issue with my church and the denominational leaders who fired me - but was unsuccessful in my efforts.  My heart still breaks for those who are not being reached - and the unchurched laugh at us for our hypocrisy.

My heart also breaks for those who don't see how their lack of outreach is stifling their own spiritual walk.

So very sad indeed.

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

Good points Darrell!

At the last evangelistic series we did in Colorado Springs, I refused to let the professional evangelist push baptism.  I was blessed with an administration that didn't require certain numbers.  It was an experiement - somewhat successful .

The idea was that discipleship is a journey, membership is a process.  Discipleship is best accomplished one-on-one, membership can be accomplished en masse.

At the end of the five-week series, there were some who were clearly ready for baptism - and we baptised them.  There are others, whom we would have lost had we pushed for baptism.  And there were still others who were ready for baptism, but not church membership.

Overall, our church attendance grew by 30 people, though we only baptised about 10.  Our congregation swelled by about 50-60.  

We are living in some very interesting times.  We need to find ways to measure something other than bodies, buildings, and bucks.

Thanks for sharing!

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

Of the pastors I have observed, only one kept regular office hours. Eight to 12 every morning, he was available by phone or in person, at the church. Appointments sometimes drew him away, but were usually scheduled for the afternoons. His office was used for sermon writing and study as well as ministry.

The "home office" is an excuse not to be available. Understandably, the pastor with multiple churches would have difficulty in keeping office hours, but sans that excuse, it would seem that most pastors are just dogging it. Or, how about those pastors who use their "spare" time (time not preaching) for a second job--only too frequently as a consultant to the same conference that pays their salaries in the first place.

Nor is there any system of accountabliity for pastors. There are published guidelines, evaluations, polls of those served, any means of accurately assessing the performance of pastors. Loyalty to one's superiors or mentors seems to be the key factor in employment.

While I know and deeply respect many folk in church employment, the system has allowed for a great many employees that act as a cancer within. More accountability and transparency is urgently needed.

Gary,

 Thinking and contemplating more on what you have said in this article and in the follow-ups to it.  I have a desire to see my church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church as a whole, become the missional church Christ called it to be.  I recognize, as do many other members, that as a whole the church has lost it's vision and mission which was directly given by God through the Bible and added to by Ellen White.  What seemed like a good idea structurally 100 years ago doesn't work so well now, but everyone is afraid to challenge it and rethink it.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to continually seek God's wisdom in regards to the changes necessary, in fact we need to seek Him more intensely.

 I am a pastor.  I recognize the responsibility I have is threefold (maybe more).  First, I answer to God (this is most important),  second I answer to my Conference, and thirdly I answer to my congregation.  You may put the last two priorities differently, as I do often.  The key point is I have accountability and I take it seriously.  When it comes time to change, and seeing the necessary process take place to redirect the church, I have to ask where can I have more of an impact?  Inside or outside the church?  Either are perilous, perhaps inside more so.  But if you move at the speed of God, then inside is the best place to be, for ultimately God has a plan that will move His church to where He wants it to be in His time.  Which is why I have chosen to honor God my doing my best as a Pastor, pleasing Him first in hopes that by doing so I can reflect the change necessary beginning in my local congregations.  

 Please don't mistake what I am saying.  I am not criticizing you, by no means!  i don't know the back story, and it's none of my business.  But as I live in a "glass house", I am going to be careful and seek God's guidance as to when, where and how to move.  If we work in God's timetable, and His plan, the church will become the missional movement He called it to 2,000 years ago.  He needs men and women who will be faithful to this calling and willing to risk professional advancement or their career by being faithful.  In fact therein lies the difference of those who will help advance this change; seeing it as a ministry, not a career.  For I have been called by God and I want to do what He calls me to do, and it may cost me my job doing so!

 We need a change!  I know it, you know it.  The question is, when will those who impede the change recognize it?  They are standing in the way, not of the church, but of God, and causing many to be lost by doing so.  But that is my final point.  Each pastor, every leader of the local church and school has to make the decision to change and become missional and focused on the communities.  By doing this, the true change will be affected, whether those higher up like it or not. 

Gary, 

Excellent questions that go to the heart of what we should be as a church!  

Being a Christian organization should not exclude operating a school, but I think it is gross mismanagement that we would even think of providing private, Christian education at below-market prices.  Now, before you shoot back, I'll agree that we have a long history of subsidizing our schools.  Sometimes it has been a real benefit to a local church and the difference between operating a school, or not.  But the institutional practice has lulled us into a situation of corporate dependance where few members know the real cost of operating a school. 

Are we a mission or an institution?  We've become the latter when we should return to being the former.  

What is our vision of mission?  We won't truly have one unless we are both individually and corporately empowered by the Holy Spirit.   

As for giving $12 a month, I don't know many people who will give more just because the conference needs it.  They want to see results.  One of the best examples of motivated giving I've seen in recent years is the church I attend.  Our membership just passed 100.  Four years ago we bought six acres of prime land on a main road in a growing area.  A few weeks ago we paid-off the mortgage!   Currently we're buying adjoining lots to have more growing room.  By the way, we don't collect an offering as part of our worship services.  We have donation boxes by the entrances.  We have never lacked for funds.  That's because we have a dream of operating a preschool to grade-12 mission school with an enrollment of over 400!  Only a minority will be SDA.  We're a non-traditional, contemporary church where members who are discovering new ministries directed by the Holy Spirit.  So I guess you could say we're motivated.

Brent, yes, you raise some good points. 

When I first became a pastor about 12-13 years ago, the one thing that amazed me was the lack of accountability systems in place for pastors.  In my previous career, I had regular employee review meetings with my superiors and we mapped out goals and objectives for the next 6-12 months.  The most accountability I ever had as a pastor was how many miles I drive every month.  That simply is not enough.

For me, the child of a workaholic, who was also the child of a workaholic, working "enough" hours has never been a problem.  Working too much has always been my issue.  With young kids, and entering my 50s, I'm starting to find the balance - at least I see it when I swing past.

However, expecting pastors to keep office hours is an old parish model that really doesn't fit the realities of relevant cultural evangelism today.  You may have noticed that neither Jesus nor His spostles/disciples kept office hours either.  Instead, the infiltrated the communities where they were called to serve. 

Keeping office hours may serve the parish, but this model doesn't really do anything for the unchurched seekers in the community.  In Matthew 28, Jesus tells us to go into the community - He does not ask the seekers to come to the church.

In fact, I found greater success in reaching out to the community by finding one or two cafes that had Internet access.  Over the course of 6-12 months, I am usually able to establish significant relationships that eventually lead to discipleship, baptisms, church attendance, and membership.

Also, public arenas, like a local cafe, can be a safer place to meet with parishoners.  My last church office was tucked into a back corner of the church facility, and it was not a safe place for me to meet with people.  Not only were there no other people in the building, but it exposed me to false accusations that any of my visitors may choose to level.  I would never have used that office to meet with women, children, or even teens.  But even someone of my same gender could level a false accusation.  For this reason, my home - or a local cafe - were always a better venue.

As long as we keep expecting pastors to coddle the parishoners, we will continue to embrace old models of ministry that prevent spiritual and physical growth in our churches.  It is when we turn our pastors loose to reach into the community, engage the culture, and become a part of the conversation, that we will begin to see real transformation in our churches and the communities we serve.

Thanks for sharing!

PS:  I totally agree that we need more transparency too.  One experiement I tried in my last district was to use online social networking (Facebook, Twitter, & blogging) to keep people informed as to my geographic, philisophic, and theologic where-abouts.  I always posted my location.  I always posted what I was doing.  I constantly posted what I was thinking and doing.  Unfortunately, I was threatened with firing if I kept doing that. ;(

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

Great testament Dean!  Praise God for men (and some women) like you!  You are absolutely right in so many ways.

25 years ago, as I was struggling with my broken spiritual journey, I was encouraged by my brother.  He said that it was easier to fix the church from the inside, then from the outside.  With that advice, I dove in - and it has been a great ride - especially for someone who doesn't do anythng half-way.

A few years ago, as some of us began to explore some different leadership options, it was apparent that rocking the boat was going to uncover unsavory practices in a lot of areas.  Being a church planter also gave us some leeway in what traditions to keep, and what to abandon.  This was a humbling, frightening, and awesome opportunity - not one we took lightly.

What began to shake out was a very theologically conservative, methodologically progressive, but non-traditional church body - with more non-members than members.

But the questions that arose were scary.  I remember sitting in may discussions with some very well respected Adventist pastors, where I asked, "What does it mean to be an Adventist?"  Not surprisingly, we never arrived at any concrete answers.  The one thing I came away with is that I have to stay very, very close to Jesus - and Him alone!

These are questions I am incapable of answering.  It is too big for me.  However, in my walk with my Savior, I felt compelled to stand up for the invisible people in our church - and the unchurched seekers in the community.  Unfortunately, the status quo church board wanted me to take care of them - even if it meant sacrificing my family.

But, I vowed years ago that I would not leave.  They sawed Jeremiah in half, they hung Jesus on a cross, the stoned Stephen, John was ostracized to an island, Martin Luther was excommunicated, and even Ellen White was asked to leave the Methodist Church (She wouldn't leave).

Well, at least I still have my life and my family.

I may have been asked to leave full-time denominational employment, but I'm still called to pastor.  As soon as I recover from the thrashing, as soon as I reestablish an income source, and as soon as God gives me the word, I and my family will dive right back into full-time ministry.  Missional, authentic, and relevant!

Thanks again for sharing Dean!

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

That's awesome WFNoel!

Where there is vision, the money will follow!

I have a sign taped to the top of my computer monitor - it's been there for as long as I've had this PC (about eight years).  It says: 

"Spiritually Healthy, Numerically Strong"

This, I believe is where our priorities need to be.  If we focus on numbers (eg; bodies, buildings, or bucks), it will be difficult for us to move forward.  However, if our primary objective is to glorify God, reveal His character,  and share in His love, all else will fall into place.

I believe Jesus said it best in Matthew 6:

"Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and all these things will be added unto you."

Thanks again for sharing your passion!

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

To those who have singled out pastors as not pulling their weight, I would just like to add these thoughts.

I know these men and women are an easy target, they are the ones you have the most contact with.  However, maybe you should consider loking higher up the chain of command.  Pastoral ministry is frequently listed as one of the least respected career fields, yet also one of the most difficult.  There are many demands and expectations.

Studies have shown that 70% of pastors cite their ministry as being damaging to their families.  We lose a surprising number of pastors every year, and much of this is because they are not managed well.  A pastor who has given their life to ministry may grow tired and burned out.  Without effective care, they may succumb to laziness, exhaustion, or even a moral failure.  The Churches choose to treat this by shooting the wounded.  This is craziness.

As I've tried to point out in the article above, and it only became clearer to me in a reareading last night, it is our denominational leadership that needs to be held accountable.  They are the ones who manage the pastors, the finances, and the vision of the church - missional, or not.

Blaming the front-line employees for the failure of the organization is not just lame, but shows a narrow focus on what should be a biger picture.

Yes, there are lazy, incompetitent pastors - and they should be terminated.  But first, progressive steps need to be taken to redeem these men and women into effective employment.  In addition, these pastors need objective standards by which they are evaluated - and then held accountable to these standards.  Currently, employees are transfered or terminated based on subjective and unwritten codes of conduct that are arcane and parochial.

Before pastors are held accountable, the constituents need to hold the leadership accountable.  A wise mentor of mine once said, "The speed of the leader determines the speed of the Church."  If our churches are not growing - spiritually or numerically - then we need to look at our leadership, not the front line workers.

Before we ever take on a restructuring, we, as an organization, need to determine our vision, our mission, and our core values.  The structure needs to support these - not the other way around!

Currently, we keep pastors based on how few complaints they generate.  We don't want trouble makers because we are afraid they will damage the church.  If members are unhappy, they may leave.  If they leave, the dollars will stop flowing.  If the dollars stop flowing, the buildings will need to be sold.  Bodies, buildings, and bucks.

Maybe the organization will have to shrink before it gets healthy again.  This needs to be decided by leadership - elected officials.  These are the people that need to be held accountable.  If they aren't doing what needs to be done - which is more than just keeping the institution afloat, they are the ones that need to be replaced.

As an example, if the Taco Bell corporation is losing money, it's not the  fault of the 17 year old girl taking your order - no matter how poor of service she gives you.  It's not the fault of the oby who forgot to put cheese in your been burrito, even if he sneezed on it also.  First we need to look at the ones who hired these kids.  Then we need to lok at franchise rules (or the lack thereof) that allows kids like this to be hired.  And finally, after a series of steps, we look at the CEO of Taco Bell and we ask that person, why is Taco Bell failing.

Does this make sense?

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

Gary, Pastors are not comparable to a 17 year old girl taking orders at Taco Bell. Neither does their work correspond to the "cook" making burritos. Most of these men have graduate degrees. They are not ignorant victims of an abusive system. Most of them have agreed to play the system, in order to survive. They are part of a dysfunctional, toxic organization. 

Sure, they need to support their family. So does every one else. Other people do not expect to be supported by tithe. Pastors do. The very nature of the Adventist ministry makes it clear going in that Adventist clergy will live off the sweat of their congregations.

Granted, it is a symbiotic relationship. Dysfunctional churchmembers feeding a dysfunctional organization require dysfunctional pastors to  keep things running smoothly. If I agree to play that game, however, I am not a victim. I am a perpetrator, a "Perp," as Sipowicz would say.

There are two very informative topics for study and review , relative to this blog, in the writings of EGW. One area, previously mentioned, is "hovering." The other is "sermonizing." Both practices are detrimental to clergy and laity alike.

Unfortunately, hovering and sermonizing define Adventist ministry,  

Years ago, I was invited to interview for a position settling medical malpractice cases. I thought it would be a great job, one for which I was  qualified. I decided to do some checking on the company which had expressed an interest in hiring me. I discovered that this major insurer was actually owned by a tobacco conglomerate. I could  be working for big tobacco. I contacted their corporate headquartes and got  hold of an accountant. Once I determined the nature of the relationship between the insurance company and the tobacco company, I ended the interview process. No way was I going to work for big tobacco.

On another occasion, I was in line for a promotion to a management position with another insurer. I had become uncomfortable with some of the company practices  settling claims. After all, if I was peddling policies which the company was going to try and avoid honoring and I knew that, I was involved in scamming people for the sake of my own bottom line. I resigned from a job which I enjoyed.

Do you really think that people should expect any less from men involved in supposedly sacred work, that of preaching justification among the gentiles?

Hanson, I think you might have confused the details of my metaphor with the point I was trying to make.  Yes, pastors are well educated individuals, but they are not in charge.  Blaming the workers is not going to fix the system.  Holding the bosses accountable might.

I didn't grow up in "the system" - and I had the idealistic view that "whatever was good, whatever was true, and whatever" further advanced the Kingdom of God, would be considered a good thing for a pastoral leader to do.  Unfortunately, I learned that the safety of the system is more important than the truth - or the Truth (John 14:6).

There are many dedicated men and women who for whatever reason, believe they are doing what God has called them to do - and be. There are others who are ignorant of the systems that have swallowed them up.  And there are still others who are trying to make the best of a bad situation - waiting for God to release them from Egypt.  Still others are bucking the system the best they know how.

A pastor recently told me that his perspective right now is to "keep his head down and not make eye-contact."  Another told me he is trying to learn some things before they throw him out too.  Still, more than one have told me, they don't know what else they would do.  As I'm learning, there isn't a lot of work for blacklisted Adventist pastors - and in this economy, there isn't a lot of work period.

Let's not be too quick to judge the men and women, who either passionately, ignorantly, or Holy Spirit led, entered the ministry - one of the hardest jobs on the planet - at great personal sacrifice.  Yes, there are many who should have been terminated a long time ago.  But that doesn't mean most are bad apples.

Let's put the accountability where it belongs - at the top.  And, let's continue to let God be God.  More than once in biblical accounts, He allowed good men and women to enter into bondage - through no fault of their own (sometimes ).

I'd invite you to take a look at some of the articles atached to this site:

Why Pastors Leave the Ministry

As I've mentioned, some of the most capable men and women I attended seminary with - many, second-career pastors like me, are no longer pastoring churches.  They have moved on to independent ministries, administrative roles, or foreign service.  Why is that?

PS: gapingvoid gallery

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

Gary, I understand what you are saying. I don't agree with your interpretation of the situation. Blaming others, in this case, administrators, is not the solution. Pastors are grown ups. Taking responsibility is usually the first step to solving a problem.

Forgive me, but I question just how much "sacrifice" many of these men are making. A job with little accountability, prestige, a living wage and good benefits is not much of a sacrifice. It's kind of a cushy job, in many respects. If they are unable to earn a living doing anything else and feel that they must keep their head down in order to meet their family obligations, is there honor or nobility in that? If not, why should men who lack basic integrity be supported by church members?

People are questioning the ethics of biology teachers who take a salary while teaching evolution. How can you even begin to justify paying ministers who, admittedly, are treading water?

Relentless criticism is certainly not the answer. I can choose to support the SDA clergy or choose to not support it. I don't fear the curse of Malachi 3. No one is going to wring tithe out of me with a threat of damnation. Jesus made it very clear on the cross that he absorbed the wrath of God for me.

The Adventist tithing doctrine is an invitation for the kind of abusive system that has developed. There are plenty of opportunities for those who are really interested in preaching the gospel. I happen to believe in a God who provides, not an institution who writes me a check.

Adventists have become experts at making merchandise of religion. I'll take another path.

I never said that pastors shouldn't be held responsible.  And I'm not blaming administrators.  All I'm saying is that policies and procedures need to be put in place to deal with these issues.  The people responsible for these policies and procedures, are the people at the top - lead administrators, executive boards, and ultimately the consituency is where the buck stops.  

 This applies to pastors and biology professors.

 Most of the pastors (my peers) I've worked with, put in on the average 80 hours a week - too few took a full day off.  This should not be acceptable either, but it is encouraged.

If a system allows people to coast, then the system is to blame.  That doesn't mean the individuals are not wrong - it's just the system needs to be changed.

Have you read much Peter Drucker?

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

Hanson, (and Gary)

Hope you don't mind my getting in this conversation--I am only a member not a pastor.  It is obvious you aren't a pastor either, and I am more apt to side with Gary from observation and from being a paid church secretary years ago in California and later a volunteer in a rural church.

I think the local churches and pastors should be the most important part of the church and administrative entities should serve them.  In the rural church where I lived the conference wouldn't put out a few dollars to pay for a secretary yet expected the pastor to do his own secretarial work at his much higher salary.  Meanwhile he couldn't get other work done for which he had been hired.  In California the church had to pay their secretary, but secretaries in the conferences, etc. were paid by tithe.  All of this is confusing. 

I agree there is too much church government and the tail wags the dog. The infrastructure definitely needs changing. For beginners, would you join a church with seperate offices for black administraters? Next unions seem the likely institutions to go. I am no expert, but his has been argued for decades.  The whole system needs accountability.

We need more pastors, and I can see why many enthusiastic pastors join Rod Gladden.  Those who sit in administrative offices should periodically be put out again into pastoral work.  On the other hand not all good administrators are good pastors.  Why do administrators have to be pastors?  Why should they be ordained?  It makes little sense, and we deserve what we get with often poorly-trained administrators. At the same time good pastors and evangelists are put into administration by virture of their celebrity status, and they are lost to the local churches.  Spiritual gifts are certainly lost in this dysfunctional system.

We expect pastors to be experts in everything.  They are expected to be counselors (are they trained for it?), business men, evangelists, teachers, preachers, theologians, maintenance people, community leaders, social workers, have a substantial personal spiritual life, etc.  No human being can do this adequately!  Then you have these psuedo seminaries like Amazing Facts who take inexperienced people and give them little more than Bible training with none of the above and send them out to local churches.

Most pastors want all members to be active in church duties, and many are.  Yet members have families and full-time jobs. Some have big responsibilities at home.  Does mission work always mean reaching outside the home?   Unfortunately many pastors make us feel guilty for not helping enough with church activities, and this has the opposite effect than what the pastor intended.  And I am sure there are people who stopped going to church because of being scolded for this or being late or missing SS, etc.  I would suggest more paid assistants in the local church and not less!

As for schools, that depends on the area and number of students.  I am of the opinion that the Mormons method of teaching children religious studies on the side while they attend public schools, is a good plan for some areas. I think other Christian schools can sometimes meet their needs if they are available.  And for the lucky few with parents who can teach, there is home schooling.  Too many churches are being drained by their schools and unable to do their jobs in the community.

I really pray we can find the harmony that will allow change to occur.  Otherwise we are worse than the battleing Democrats and Republicans in Washington since we claim God's leading.

Thanks for sharing Ella!

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

This discussion began with the dubious claim that the pressures facing the church today are not theological, but organizational. Most commenters have accepted this premise, moving on to the perennially popular blame game. It reminds me of the disciples arguing over who would be the greatest in the Kingdom, except we're arguing over who is the most dysfunctional in the body of Christ.

The truth is that we, like Christ's disciples, are all incredibly dysfunctional - from the highest to the lowest. And we have a hard time yielding to the truth that we demonstrate discipleship (Kingdom greatness) by serving, loving, and submitting to one another as dysfunctional members of the body of Christ.

There is nothing about the ministry or message of Christ which offers encouragement for the notion that organizational evils stand in the way of the Kingdom, or that organizational reforms will advance the Kingdom. Jesus confronted a religious leviathon that claimed authority over the hearts, minds and behavior of Jewish people. It could scarcely have been more dysfunctional. Yet He did nothing to change "the system". Rather, He sought to wean hearts and minds from dependence upon "the system" so that they could be free to follow a higher authority. And He made it clear that no political or ecclesiastical authority could stand in the way of Kingdom living.

So why do we want to make the gospel commission so dependent on church polity, priorities, and distribution of resources? Is it possible that, by making religious education, worship, and church growth the primary responsibility of paid professionals we are actually impeding the gospel? 

Nathan, I agree with you. "Blaming" pastors is misguided on my part. It's much easier looking without than within, however.

Jesus knew what was coming.  The existing religious system was utterly destroyed. It wasn't the first time, either. Desecration and restoration is a dominant OT motif. It involves much of the OT. Kings, Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, and Haggai concern themselves with either the desecration of the temple or its restoration

It was never God's plan for a "system" to develop which could or would become abusive. It's not a coincidence that Jesus took a whip to a system which was never his ideal. It's not hard to demonstrate  that to "obey his voice" was to respond to Him in the same way that Abraham had previously done: By faith.

22  "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
23  "But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’
24  "Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward (Jer 7).

The NT gospel is simply trying to move people back (or ahead) to the justifying faith of Abraham. That priestly system was illustrated by Melchisedec, not Aaron. Adventism is still entangled in the Aaronic system, one based on laws and obedience rather than promises and faith.

Wow!  Well said Nathan!

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

Gary, This thread has taken the usual course for discussions of this nature. A problem is identified, blame is passed around, then it is decided that WE are the problem, and nothing is done. Those who continue "criticizing" are considered "disloyal"  and marginalized.

Meanwhile, those who have the most to gain from doing nothing continue feeding at the trough, and the congregations stagnate or decline. The homes of the pastors I have visited indicated little of the sacrifice you have described. I had other friends, employed in the hi tech industry, who lived near a pastor I knew. They were actually planning to leave the neighborhood because it was too expensive.

You mention working 80 hour weeks with little accountability. How do you define work? I knew some Filipina RNs who worked two separate jobs, each with three 12 hour shifts a week. They probably worked  seven days a week sometimes. They were working 72 documentable hours a week. Is a pastor who spends 25 hours a week crafting and polishing his sermon "working" during those hours? What about the time going to meetings.

I knew one pastor who spent an entire day each month going to a meeting at the conference office. At least a two hour trip each way, plus the meeting, plus lunch. If these people were subjected to some real accountbility by an expert in time management and organizational psychology, do you think that many would be thought of as profitable employees?

One solution is for people to stop supporting the denomination with tithe. Administrators may not be moved by lost souls wandering around the denomination, by burned out pastors, by negative church "growth." They will be moved by diminishing funds. They have to be.

It's a good place to start.

www.luthermelanchthon.blogspot.com 

  Yes, as I quoted George Knight above, the Church has never changed unless faced with bankruptcy.

 Hansen, even if pastors are abusing the system, even if they are lazy, milking it, and the like - why aren't their superiors holding them accountable?  Why do we, the people, allow a system to exist that allows such pastors to remain employed?  Why aren't we holding the employer accountable?

Anything I do, that my employer requires, is considered work - whether that is sitting on my rear in some stupid meeting, or mowing the lawn of some dear saint who is in the hospital.  Believe me, sitting in that meeting is far harder than mowing the lawn.

 Anything that takes me away from my family - physically, or in focus - anything that takes me away from what I'd rather be doing, anything that is for the glory of God, the good of the congregation, or to the benefit of the community - that is work.  It might be enjoyable, and it might not - but it is what I got paid to do.

Now, as one who rocked the boat too much, I get to do all that for free!  And believe me, it is a lot more fun.  

BTW, your comments have not been very encouraging.  This will most likely be the last post I write for awhile.  I'm tired of trying to move the ball down the field.  The link to Barna's book, Revolution, in my article above, is most likely the direction I'm going.  It's just to hard to expect the behemoth of the Church to move.

It's one thing to try and get the denomination to wake up to it's brokenness.  It's another thing to get the people of The Church to see the brokenness.  But it's quite another thing when people just argue to be arguing.  It get's old.  I believe this is why Nehemiah wouldn't take the time to go meet with his naysayers.  It's just exhausting.

Why are we arguing about details?  Why are we debating about who's to blame?  Who cares?  Let's just pick up the pieces and move forward... 

________________

Gary S. Walter

http://bit.ly/gwalter

The Adventist message is the important thing here.  The vehicle for moving that message forward is an organization since the reach, capacity, and opportunities of a collection of people is greater than that of an individual.  Readers of AToday are aware of the work of Mission Catalyst and how the Adventist message is being carried forward in this way.  The organization would be wise to embrace the work of Mission Catalyst, but I hold little hope that it will do so.  Instead, Mission Catalyst will likely be viewed as a threat and opposed or ignored.

Organizationally, a person can only change that which is on the same level or below.  Attempting to directly change those who are above is pointless.  Influence is available to those on lower rungs of hierarchy, but actual change must be made from above.  That is why leadership is so crucial. 

I was an associate pastor in the Upper Columbia Conference from 1980 until 1986.  My questions and challenges to the way things were being done were unwelcome (the issue of wedding bands, of all things, was the flashpoint).  I decided to minister outside of denominational employ by going through the work of becoming a licensed therapist in CA.  It was a hard slog and took 5 years to complete with licensure in 1991.  I have recently completed another degree in management and will now combine the disciples of theology, relationships and management and offer my services to organizations which wish to improve.  I have a heart for Adventist teachings, people and ministry.  I hope that I'll be able to work for SDA groups as well as others.  Regardless, change won't come to the denomination without courage and an ability to handle criticism and disagreement.  Most organizations have little capacity to tolerate this and so take the route of least resistance, which is, all too often, ineffective, inefficient, and short-sighted.  Adventists are not a distinct and separate people in this regard; they're just part of the human herd it would appear.

Gary,

Thanks for your response. Your point about office hours being an older model is good. Still being accountable for your time and being accessible is important to a congregation. Some other way is needed. I too like a cafe as a place to meet.

The physical presence of a church building is partially for just that purpose, not just as a weekly meeting place, perhaps? Why else have it? That is an interesting idea to explore....

You talk about being in the community and reaching out to people. Important, true, but part of a pastor's job is to help his or her congregation to do just that, to be a resource to them. Tough, I'm sure, when those same people are fighting you all the way. I wonder what parallels might be drawn with Jesus's ministry for this?