Beyond assumptions

Editor's note: This was first published a year ago as an editorial in the South Pacific Division’s Record. We invited Nathan to share it with Adventist Today readers at that time but, for a variety of reasons, he asked that we wait before re-publishing it.

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I am tempted to think it is not a major issue. Most of the time I am not directly affected--and we all tend to think with less urgency about issues that don't bother us directly.

From a Christian perspective, the Bible says little about the issue of homosexuality--no more than five references, depending how you count them. At least superficially, a couple of these verses seem straightforward but they are only a couple. And there is such a variety of explanations of these verses--urging what they "really" say--covering many shades of meaning. Belying the political noise of various Christian activists, it is difficult to argue homosexuality as a specifically important moral issue from a biblical perspective. 

It's little wonder we would prefer to avoid the difficult questions, whether by our silence in refusing to talk or think about it at all, or by our dogmatic and perhaps unfeeling adherence to a seemingly simple, black-and-white attitude. 

But then I come across the personal stories of those who have been hurt, confused and excluded by the church. Recognizing the personal trauma, loss and heartache of openly acknowledging one's homosexuality in a conservative Christian community, it seems obvious most of those who have endured such an ordeal are not homosexual by choice. If they could choose otherwise, their lives and faith would be so much simpler. 

Our silence is part of the problem. When the issue is not faithfully, carefully and sensitively addressed, the unspoken pressure to conform to "normality" gives rise to deep-seated personal tension, double lives and dishonest relationships. Or we simply say, by our silence and our assumptions, "You don't belong. Become like us or you can never fit in. The church has nothing and no place for you." 

And then there is the perception of Christianity in the wider community. The research behind David Kinnaman's book UnChristian sought outsider's views on Christianity and the church. Of all the possible descriptors, the single most common perception is that Christianity is anti-homosexual: "our hostility toward gays-not just opposition to gay politics and behaviours but disdain for gay individuals-have become virtually synonymous with the Christian faith." While we probably would not describe our faith in this way, this perception held by many in our community creates a significant barrier to their further interest in anything Christian. 

In their preface to Christianity and Homosexuality: Some Seventh-day Adventist Perspectives, the editors acknowledge the difficulties faced by a community of faith that seeks to remain true to the Bible as the word of God, at the same time as living, worshipping and reaching out in a diverse and complex society in which tolerance is a highly-valued virtue. On one hand, we recognize that "the Bible nowhere has anything good to say about same-sex relationships" but then we know people who are both-as these editors put it-"incurably Adventist and incurably gay." 

This is the first step: recognizing that homosexual people are people, human beings with loves, hopes, faiths, fears and failings--like us. They need a Saviour to the same degree as we do, and they need places to belong and communities in which they can share and grow in faith. 

With this realization comes the difficult task of finding a balanced biblical faithfulness, ensuring we are not merely caving in to the amorality of society around us. We talk as a community of faith, wrestling with the texts that seem hard, not to water them down but to understand them as best we can and seek the best in them for what it means to be human. And of course we need to read these verses in company with such broad and compelling commands such as to "do for others what you would like them to do for you" (Matthew 7:12) and "I command you to love each other" (John 15:17). 

Jesus seemed to preach and practice a scandalous inclusivity, in ways many of us would be less than comfortable with today. As "God among us," Jesus stepped into a worst-case scenario:

"Tax collectors and other notorious sinners often came to listen to Jesus teach. This made the Pharisees and teachers of religious law complain that he was associating with such despicable people-even eating with them!" (Luke 15:1, 2).

With Jesus' example of unconditional embrace, can we justify anything less in our churches and communities? 

But what that means, what it looks like in practice and how we maintain our honesty and adherence to the Bible are questions that require our continued and communal work, thinking and prayer.

Comments

Re: Beyond assumptions

From Nathan -  

it is difficult to argue homosexuality as a specifically important moral issue from a biblical perspective.

Gird your loins, brother (and I mean this in a completely non homo-erotic way.)

Re: Beyond assumptions

Nathan,
The Christian's problem with homosexuality is that we fail to see the real problem: the sin allowed into our world by the choice made by our first parents and the degrading results that have been progressing since that day.  The wages of sin is death.  That includes the sins of pride, theft, disrespect for parents, murder and envy.  But we've become so tolerant of those sins that homosexuality is the last major sin we can point to and try to feel justified when we condemn it.  
Paul's condemnation of homosexual behavior did not imply that it was a greater or more deadly sin than any other.  He merely selected as his example for discussion a sin that was publicly visible in that time and place as an example of the degrading nature of sin itself.  
Jesus looked past the repulsive and offensive behaviors that were the result of a sin-degraded nature and touched the hurting hearts inside with His forgiving and transforming power.  if only we would do the same! 
Why do we Christians have such a hard time dealing with homosexuality?  Because it impacts on the most intimate of our relationship, the bond God designed should exist between a man and a woman.  Our challenge is to view all sinners as God does and understand what an amazing opportunity the behavior gives us to share God's love.

Re: Beyond assumptions

Harlen  I have never seen a comment or blog addressing the idea of mankind being created in God's image, as male/female together, in union, both spiritual, physical and social, with the divine-like power to create (pro-create); connecting that concept with other alternative (same sex) relationships as NOT being the image of God.  Is it that it's too obvious, or too taboo, or politically incorrect, or exclusive?  But it WOULD explain why the Bible/God expresses unhappiness with any other combo. That's a philosophical thought.  The practical thought is that we are what we are, sinners all, all in need of God's grace for ourselves, and God's graciousness through ourselves to others.

Re: Beyond assumptions

"But then I come across the personal stories of those who have been hurt, confused and excluded by the church. Recognizing the personal trauma, loss and heartache of openly acknowledging one's homosexuality in a conservative Christian community, it seems obvious most of those who have endured such an ordeal are not homosexual by choice. If they could choose otherwise, their lives and faith would be so much simpler."

Substituting the word HOMOSEXUALITY/HOMOSEXUAL in the above paragraph with ALCOHOLISM, SMOKING, STEALING, CHEATING, etc. would make it obvious that none of those are conditions of CHOICE --- that I think is the reason of why attitudes toward sins and sinners are such difficulty issues. 

 

 

 

 

Re: Beyond assumptions

Romans 1 describes homosexuality as impurity (NASV):

 24  Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

This term, "impurity" is used ~10 times in the NT, always in a negative sense. It appears in sin lists in the company of terms such as immorality and  sensuality. It is contrasted with sanctification.

It is either a lie or an expression of ignorance to state that homosexuality is  condemned not more than 5 times in Scripture. It is condemned several times as either unclean or impure.

Heterosexual fornicators are aslo described as impure in 1 Thessalonians 4:3-7. It is, therefore, correct to think of homosexuality and heterosexual fornication as tigers of the same stripe. Another way to put it is that homosexuality is fornication.

Re: Beyond assumptions

What is happening to our church? From evolution to homosexuality, the walls of truth are crumbling. Woe unto them that call good evil and evil good....Why are we so obssessed with this touchy feely world stuff... and true love and compasssion you leave on the floor to be trampled on like a door mat? Are you truly about reaching the sinner and dining with him as Christ would to convert, or are you all just allowing your worldly political views to cloud your religious views? Where is the light of the Church today? Its being extinguished by worldly political correctness that has no place in any Christian church.

We may well end up like the other churches. First they assaulted the 4th commandment by intituting Sunday in its place. Then they began denying His creative power by accepting evolution, another assault also on the 4th commandment. Then they began having openly gay priests and bishops. What has happened to all of Christiandom?

Where are the CHRISTIANS?

Re: Beyond assumptions

"What is happening to our church?"

Answer.........They have substituted acceptance for repentance and conversion.

Bill Sorensen

Re: Beyond assumptions

Can someone explain why our comments are being deleted??

 

Re: Beyond assumptions

Agree, Mr. Sorensen! 

Born & raised in SDA home, church & schools in both Texas & Tennessee, I was blessed to have the foundational blocks formed under my feet when at the age of 19 I strayed from the church for 15 long years, never leaving my belief of SDA teachings, but worldy ways became the excuse for not attending Sabbath services.  Using the over used argument "SDA is nothing but can't do this or can't do that" ... was nothing more than satans tool, which grew to fear of being judged by members if I went back, later.

 Like the Protical Son, however, when I was at a very low point in 1995, I was on my knees for hours, weeping, on a Friday. My prayer was, "Lord, I can't see You, feel You, touch You or hear You.  Please let me know You are here.  As You know, Heavely Father, my faith is weak and I need You to send Angels to HOLD ME!"

 Less than an hour later, my brother, an Elder in our church, called asking for my help.  I'm an accomplished pianist & he relayed that his accompanist was unable to play the next day & asked if I would fill in.  My first reaction was fear of being 'judged' & nearly turned him down.

Jeff assured me that the members were loving & I could leave right after playing if I felt uncomfortable.  I agreed to play.

Nobody knew of my prayer!  When I arrived to the church, across the foyer was the mother of a classmate from academy I hadn't seen since 1976... her arms stretched wide & a glow around her. She took me in her arms and HELD ME!

To this day tears flow & my heart rejoices ... for there was not a doubt in my soul that Gods Angels were holding me ... just as I prayed.  From that day forward, many miracles occurred; began playing organ for church; studying Gods word again & having the close relationship I'd missed for so long.

Because of the foundation blocks, including the "rules & guidelines", and if it were not for the 10 Commandments -- I truly do not believe I would have found my way back home.  It was ME looking at the "RULES" in the wrong light and it was ME looking at the PEOPLE instead of the message Gods word teaches keeping me in fear of coming home.

So many of my age group that strayed, like me, have all come home.  Now Elders, Deacons, Deaconess, Sabbath School leaders, missionaries, school teachers, nurses, doctors, etc... we are all back in the arms of Christ.  Each of us are so grateful that we were "lead in the ways of rightiousness" ... so we could clearly see the difference between good & evil.  Peace vs darkness!  We found our ways back HOME in the arms of Jesus Christ & the true church!

For the parent whose son left church, there is always hope & I earnestly will be praying for him to find his way back home where PEACE & JOY reign again.  Please don't give up but continue reaching a loving hand of encouragment.  Never once did I lose sight of the truth -- just the connection with Christ in my heart.

Self-esteem, one of satans most  weapons he uses on the most vulnerable -- was used against me, leaving thoughts of not being good enough for Him. Not being able to live up to the "expectations" of SDA teachings or worthiness to Christ.  Oh, how I was wrong!

Today, for the first time I am fearful for our church.  "Change"?  Change what? 

The way I see it -- after 15 yrs -- coming back to music being accepted by some of our churches that sound like night clubs. Rock music that makes one wonder ... "Are they praising Jesus or cursing Him?"  It goes against every grain of my being & any knowledge of scripture teachings from Paul, James, John... any of them, much less Ellen G Whites writings.

It's not future "CHANGE" that worries me near has much as the change that has already occurred within our church that has had me sickened for the past 10 years.  Complacency by so many members towards the pop & rock music atmosphere is starttling, not to mention dress.

As a child, we were taught that when we entered the sanctuary, we were coming before the King of kings & Lord of lords.  That if we were to go before Queen of England, how would we dress or act?  Yet, slouch dress seems to be the code of the day, now. 

Recently I was informed that many members now openly enjoy "social drinking" as being acceptable.  What?  As someone who knows all too well where that can &/or will lead --- once again STUNNED!

We decided to stay home today & listen to WSMC to see what this "Partnership for Change" was all about.  Near the beginning of the sermon we hear, (paraphrasing but close to quote)...

"Ellen White was against Conservatism. In fact, she describes it as evil!  Look it up for yourself!"

I was home -- with my computer we pulled up EGW Estate search engine -- and did just that.  We also searched liberalism, politics, socialism, and other words for study. She also warns against liberalism in the same manor. Basically warns of the extremes on either side.

We attended the 3:00 PM discussion panel, as well. Both in the ad for the series & stated at the end of the program... "this is non- political."  The fact that had to be brought up once, much less twice -- is questionable.  

Change?  Not the change Obama calls for.  Community Organizers?  Not the organizing for votes only he offers either -- as there is nothing to show for anything Obama has done for Chicago or this nation in any time of his political career or prior to -- that SDA church would want anything to do with.   SOCIALISM is attacking this church.  

Married to a former Baptist Minister of 17 yrs that started his little church in an old store, and went door to door & street to street, credited for bringing over 500 drunks, drug addicts, abusers & other lost souls to Christ. Several are still Elders & Deacons & God fearing men & women to this day.  As a Vietnam Vet with PTSD he had to let go of his ministry & Chaplain of American Legion to focus on his own healing.  In 2003 we were re-baptised SDA's together, after reading the Bible through twice, EGW's writings & Bible studies. 

There is something stirring in our church & our hearts are weighing heavy on how to handle this -- and have been on our knees seeking Gods guidance.  So far light has been shed from trusted leaders & still small voices that have calmed our spirit.  Our prayer is that those pushing to join forces with the mindsets of Van Jones, Valerie Jarret & Obama ... search long & hard the direction & guidance being preached & discussed with vulnerable minds.   The deeper we've researched the goals behind the meetings today -- are part of a larger agenda that is not being fully disclosed. 

May this not apply to those painting with a broad brush when accusing SDA church as a whole being racist or leading us down paths of change in the wrong direction -- "They teach in My name -- but I know them not!" 

Conforming to the "world" goes against scripture & EGW writings. We are to be a peculiar people walking the straight and narrow path! 

Humbly, prayerfully & respectfully,

Larry & Deauna == Collegedale, TN

Posted earlier-- without eplanation was deleted!

Re: Beyond assumptions

dvddvdd

You asked "where are the christians?" I'd like to know the answer to that question, too.  Where are the christians who have learned to love sinners the same way Jesus did instead of condemning those whose sins are less socially acceptable?  Where are the christians who have learned to look beyond the behavior and see the hurting hearts needing touched by God's love?  

You also asked what was happening to our church.  Thankfully, some are learning to love fallen, hurting sinners instead of battling issues that result in meaningless and endless debate.  

No, the light of the church is not being extinguished by exposure to "worldliness."  It is being extinguished by slavish adherence to tradition instead of understanding the world and learning how to share God's love in it.  

Re: Beyond assumptions

Bill,

You concluded that what is happening to our church is that "they have substituted acceptance for repentance and conversion."  

If you are implying that repentance and conversion come first and acceptance second, you've got the process backward.  Jesus accepted sinners first and relieved them of guilt (forgiveness).  Then he called them to repentance as part of the process of conversion. God is able to "save completely those who come to God through him" (Heb. 7:25).  There is no difference whether a person is a thief, covetous, a homosexual or a transsexual.  The process of leading someone to redemption is the same: acceptance and forgiveness begin the redemptive process.  

Re: Beyond assumptions

"If you are implying that repentance and conversion come first and acceptance second, you've got the process backward."

I never suggested that. Jesus said, "Without me, ye can do nothing." And this includes repentance and conversion.

But as your post implies, there is no need to "repent" of worldliness either before or after you come to Jesus. And God is not particular about how you dress, eat, or worship in church.

Also, you confuse the kingdom of grace and the kingdom of glory. God accepts no one into the kingdom of glory who has not repented and been converted.

So even in this sense, "God accepts no one who does not repent and be converted" is an accurate statement.

Your theology would required no investigative judgment to determine who has been "born again" and who has not. According to your implied theory, God just accepts everyone with no conditions required for His acceptance. You make no distinction between the initial coming to Jesus and the purpose for coming to Him that we may obtain a fitness for heaven and eternal life.

Your gospel is false because it has been wrested from its true biblical perspective as you place your own implied interpretation of its meaning and application.

And you are typical of the theology of modern Adventism.

Bill Sorensen

Re: Beyond assumptions

As far as I know Scripture makes no direct reference to tobacco smoking, yet our Church devoted quite a lot of resources to oppose that vice. Is it time for our Church to devote some resources to help homosexuals to straighten up?

Re: Beyond assumptions

Bill,

Where in scripture do you get the idea that repentance and conversion are required before God can accept someone?What about the woman thrown at the feet of Jesus who was accused of adultery?  Did Jesus demand that she repent and be converted before he accepted her?  NO!  He accepted her and forgave her.  Repentance and conversion were the natural results from Jesus accepting and forgiving her first.  

How do you reconcile your concept of the "investigative judgement" being required before a person has the assurance of salvation with John 5:24 where Jesus declares plainly that anyone who believes has eternal life and says nothing about a judgement to follow?  

Also, you made some rather firm declarations about how I appeared to have been misunderstanding the Gospel.  Please, display the kind character of Christ and do not be so harsh in your accusations until you can show me from scripture where I am both knowingly and willingly continuing in error.  I speak of the Gospel both from my study of scripture and my experience with Jesus where He accepted me first, forgave me, then called me to repentance and conversion-- and all of that without any hint of insecurity about my salvation or any "investigative judgement."  

Re: Beyond assumptions

"Bill,

Where in scripture do you get the idea that repentance and conversion are required before God can accept someone?What about the woman thrown at the feet of Jesus who was accused of adultery?  Did Jesus demand that she repent and be converted before he accepted her?  NO!  He accepted her and forgave her.  Repentance and conversion were the natural results from Jesus accepting and forgiving her first. " 

How do you reconcile your concept of the "investigative judgement" being required before a person has the assurance of salvation with John 5:24 where Jesus declares plainly that anyone who believes has eternal life and says nothing about a judgement to follow?  

Also, you made some rather firm declarations about how I appeared to have been misunderstanding the Gospel.  Please, display the kind character of Christ and do not be so harsh in your accusations until you can show me from scripture where I am both knowingly and willingly continuing in error.  I speak of the Gospel both from my study of scripture and my experience with Jesus where He accepted me first, forgave me, then called me to repentance and conversion-- and all of that without any hint of insecurity about my salvation or any "investigative judgement."  

Obviously, the gospel ignores time since it is based on God's sovereign foreknowledge. So when the gospel is presented it brings together all the elements in salvation in a single moment.

"Repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out......." Acts 3:19. Even in the NT, repentance along with all that it comprehends, preceeds acceptance into heaven. Salvation as it is explained in the bible is comprehensive, and not limited to simply being legally forgiven so we escape the wrath of God.

Moral renewal is equally spoken of as "salvation" in the bible and no one is "saved" until and unless they are transformed and morally renewed.

Even if and when Jesus accepts us, it is on the condition that we understand this point and so He said to Mary, "go and sin no more." This was an "objective given" that she already understood, but was stated so there could be no confusion about the matter.

Unless we plan to "sin no more" we are not forgiven. Sometimes the bible speaks of obedience as the pre-condition for forgiveness. Sometimes the bible presents forgiveness as the motivating factor to obey.

Today, as I said, acceptance is now substituted in the place of obedience and the necessity to obey is removed from the equation. This is not the biblical norm.

It is not correct to state we obey because we are saved unless we also show, we are saved when we obey. This second point is not only ignored, but denied.

No one is "saved" unless and until they keep the law of God. Previous to this fact, they may be "saved by faith" meaning, they plan to obey and so God imputes the righteousness of Christ to them because He is sovereign and can read the heart.

So, "God calleth those thing which be not, as though they were...."Rom. 4:17

But only if a person understands the moral imperative to obey the law to be saved, will God impute the righteousness of Christ to them. And when they actually obey the law, God is vindicated in His judgment.

The investigative judgment shows this principle in an open court of law and the evidence of a believer's life will show who has accepted this principle and who has not. "Obey and live" has not been superceeded by some new gospel theory of "live and obey" that takes its place. Rather, the two concepts work together in a perfect unity of law and gospel that creates the only viable motivation to make us members of God's kingdom.

We are not only saved to obey the law, we obey the law to be saved. The carnal mind can not comprehend such an idea since it goes beyond human reasoning but the spiritual minded man who considers all the bible says on the subject of salvation not only comprehends it, but embraces it and rejoices in its beauty and simplicity.

God gives us adequate assurance coupled with a holy fear and these two motivating factors creates the viable Christian community. Remove either factor and you destroy Christanity.

Man is on trial and responsible for his own salvation. But not apart from God's action in Christ who is our Substitute and Surety. Thus we are "saved" objectively and subjectively. But not in the same way.

You asked this question, "How do you reconcile your concept of the "investigative judgement" being required before a person has the assurance of salvation with John 5:24 where Jesus declares plainly that anyone who believes has eternal life and says nothing about a judgement to follow?  "

This question in and of itself shows your lack of understanding what the word "faith" means and how it is appropriated. If you consider the scripture, it says "We have eternal life" but qualifies this statement by saying, "And this life is in His Son." And goes on to say, "He that has the Son has life, and he who has not the Son shall not see life."

None of this negates a final judgment according to works. For "works" are the only evidence of true faith. Neither does the statement release man from his moral obligation to obey the law to obtain eternal life.

"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter in through the gates into the city." Rev. 22:14

Unless salvation is "coupled with fear" as Peter so clearly states, we have a false assurance that is not based on the bible. So Paul says, "I fear, lest having preached to others, I myself, should be a casteaway." Fear is always a factor in motivating the Christian community.

So, in closing, let me ask you a question, "How do you know that your 'faith' is not presumption?"

You don't. In fact, you can be sure that at least some elements of presumption are present in your faith, and so, you must necessarily "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling......"

And Paul would say, "Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith or not." And how would you examine yourself except by considering your life by way of the law?

One final note, obedience is not "automatic". Ask Mary. She will tell you of the terrible struggle she had with "the world, the flesh, and the devil." She did not take forgiveness for granted. But knew she must carefully "keep her body under subjection" as the apostle Paul stated. And so must we, if we expect to enjoy the favor of God.

Bill Sorensen

Re: Beyond assumptions

wfnoel....

So very well said. Pray for the conference taking place starting tomorrow at Andrews. We all need your prayers. Pray that the hears of God's people will be opened and that this sin can now be viewed with equal views, not  "worse than any other sin" views. 

Many many same-sex attracted individuals who don't understand their sexual tensions, want so very much to do what God's will for them is. However when they are met with such adversity from God's leaders, it sends the wrong representation of Jesus. He died for all sinners, not just the heterosexual ones.

I firmly believe the process of understanding is at hand and many will be won to Christ as a result.

Wayne Blakely

 

Re: Beyond assumptions

Wayne,

Thank you.  I will be praying. Still, I am not optimistic about your chances for success because of the mass of misunderstanding in the church that enforces generalized rejection.  I've come to know quite a number of homosexuals and transsexuals over the years and the spiritual constant among them all is total rejection by the church. 

There was a time when I was one of those who found it easier to condemn than understand.  I was raised in the church with traditional, highly legalistic attitudes.  Then God took me to New York City where I soon discovered that my understanding of the Gospel was inadequate to give hope to any of the many homosexuals I met in areas like Greenwich Village.  When I admitted to God that my faith was inadequate to offer them hope, God led me to a converted homosexual.  The change I saw in him was so dramatic that I had to ask of his experience.  Through him, God taught me how the Gospel really works.  That lesson has transformed both my life and my ministry.  

Re: Beyond assumptions

Bill,

I have no idea what is causing you to put such anger in your words or to make such sweeping condemnations of my experience with God.  I once was filled with the same kind of rage your words express.  Then God gave me a new experience in redemption.  So I will be praying that God will give you the understanding you need to resolve your rage and that He will fill your words with the same sweetness Jesus has showered on me.  

Re: Beyond assumptions

AnitaPacificNW

I have run across Bill Sorenson's rigid, legalistic writings on other sites, and actually tried to have a dialogue with him, but found it impossible.   I wonder how many confused, hurting, searching people have been turned away because of his harsh, unbending, and incorrect portrayal of how God seeks us out, with forgiveness provided before we even ask for it.   He spreads this unhappiness around, on different blogs, different topics.   One can only hope that at some point he will see that  his  only hope is the depth of God's love for him, and the full price that was paid for his salvation, with nothing due from him but to believe and accept.   All else follows out of the love for God that His mercy inspires.  Justice is God's prerogative - not man's.  Human beings do not even begin to understand what justice is.   I pray that the Holy Spirit will intervene in the understanding of those who may be hurt by reading Bill's posts.

Re: Beyond assumptions

If by reaching out to sinners of homosexuality, to win them for Christ and save them from their sins, then you are in full agreement with the church. But the very fact some are pushing this in this way, seems to be some are offended if sin is called sin. Homosexuality is sin (like adultery, fornication, pride, etc.). It just seems some on here have a worldly political agenda rather than a Christian one. Your love of your political world view seems to be shaping your religious view, not the other way around.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil....

or as sister White put it "That religion which makes sin a light matter, dwelling upon the love of God to the sinner regardless of his actions, only encourages the sinner to believe that God will recieve him while he continues in that which he knows to be sin. This is what some are doing who profess to believe present truth. The truth is kept apart from the life, and that is the reason it has no power to convict and convert the soul."

Come now and let us reason together, saith the Lord; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

How can you let your light shine in the world if it shines at the same shade as the worlds?

Re: Beyond assumptions

Thank you for touching the issue of "Homosexuality" and the church.  It is here to stay. We must learn to deal with it in the Christian manner and not hide from it.

Re: Beyond assumptions

dvddvdd,

How can we say we're "letting our light shine" if we persist in regarding some sins as acceptable and others not?  Hating sinners and rejecting from church fellowship some we see as "undesirable"?  Bringing sinners of all stripes into the fellowship of the church creates the relationships where each of us can draw closer to Christ and discover more of His transforming power in the testimony of those who have been changed.  Being rejected from that fellowship portrays Jesus as inconsistent, limited in His power to redeem and a liar when He claimed to be the savior of the world.  Let's be consistent in practicing what we preach.  If we're going to reject even one person because of the sin that is in them, then we must reject all who have sin in their lives, including you, and lock the church doors.  

Re: Beyond assumptions

Re: Beyond assumptions

Nathan Brown had full backing with this article in the Record.

It is a pity that we have Adventist people who have double stands in our church. The plug was pulled when the sit got to hot. What a shame!!

 There has only been a few times when this subject was brought up in the Record. That is clearly shown up in Australia.

 The one thing I would like to see is dialog about this issue in Australia; it will not go away or die a natural death. So get your heads out of the sand and act like you practice. Christianity is nothing with out spirituality. 

As a close knit family we tend to hide our transgressions even to the point of ad noisome. Divorce rate is up, wife beating is up within the Adventist church and we hide this under a cloak. We have Gay children and we can not even be open about that. How sad we hide under our banner of hate the sin love the sinner. Yes we might say we love our Brother and Sister, but do we?

"I command you to love each other" (John 15:17).  Conditions have been put on it and Christ put no condition on it. Man needs to control. God is in control. "Unconditional Love for us all"

 Noel Thorpe

 

Nathan Brown's picture
Nathan BrownNathan Brown is a book editor and former magazine editor for the Adventist Church in the South Pacific, based just out of Melbourne, Australia. He has degrees in law, literature and English. He is married to Angela and they have two mismatched dogs and sponsor kids in a number of countries. Nathan is the author of four books: Pastor George (2010), a biography of the first Australian Aborigine to be ordained as an Adventist pastor; a novel Nemesis Train (2008); Seven Reasons Life is Better with God (2007); and the thought-provoking Relevation (2006). He has also edited a number of books, most recently Ordinary People-Generous God (2010).