The Allemani and the Heruli?
Mention the Minneapolis General Conference of 1888, and most Adventists immediately think of righteousness by faith. We tend to forget that another issue occupied a great deal of the time and attention of that gathering. The Uriah Smith/George Butler faction also differed with Jones and Waggoner about the identity of two of the ten tribes represented by the ten toes of the great image in Daniel 2. In his history of the church, Spalding said something to this effect: Diverting so much effort over such a small issue would be like sending troops to defend a small cabin when the greater battle hung in the balance. But it was Smith's cabin.
From our perspective more than 130 years later, the question of which ten tribes represented the ten toes seems both trivial and irrelevant. For one thing, the text itself mentions neither the number ten, nor the word toes. So we had an argument based on, well, nothing. Even granting those unmentioned details significance, neither side had a compelling argument about why the identity of the tribes mattered. We wonder how so much energy could have been wasted on something so forgettable, when the issue of righteousness by faith confronted the same assembly.
Of course, hindsight is much more acute than foresight. What is obvious today was not as clear then. And there's little value in criticizing people long dead for mistakes that cannot be corrected today. The value of examining history always comes from its ability to give us perspective on our own actions. The questions for us are 1) what is the great defining issue facing us today, as righteousness by faith was the great issue in 1888, and 2) what are the "Allemanni and Heruli" of today- pet concerns that will fade into irrelevancy?
My first article dealt with how the issues that occupy the attention of those in large Adventist centers are of little or no interest outside of those centers. I also attempted to highlight the mass exodus of young adults from the Adventist church in locales not near a large Adventist institution. Reviewing the content of this periodical over the intervening weeks gives me little hope any of that is changing. It appears to me that we are so fascinated by the process of allocating tribes to toes, of arguing over Allemanni and Heruli, that we simply cannot be bothered with the fact that we are suffering catastrophic internal bleeding.
We are hemorrhaging talent and youth at an alarming rate all across North America, Europe, and the South Pacific. According to one report, more than one fifth of all congregations in North America have no children or young adults. Our educational institutions are struggling with low enrollments in many places. Many elementary and secondary schools have closed, and others are on the brink. At least one reason for this is simply that there are no longer young adults or their young families to supply children for the schools.
Yes, the church is experiencing growth, especially overseas. But even there we see an alarming trend. Wherever the population becomes better educated and affluent, we have great difficulty in reaching them. This is most evident in second generation Adventists. In North America and Europe, we do well with first generation immigrant populations. But as their children become assimilated into the indigenous culture, we lose them. And if Adventism cannot appeal successfully to our own children, with whom we share so much in common, how can we hope to reach their educated and affluent peers, with whom we share less? The sad truth is that too often we continue to express Adventism in its 19th century form. Where the culture is stuck in the 19th century, that message does well. But much of the world is in the 21st century, and we have largely failed to keep the present truth in the present tense.
Noted evangelical Howard Hendricks has said, "If your religion doesn't work at home, it doesn't work. Don't export it." If Adventism doesn't appeal to our own children, how can we hope to export it?
It seems to this observer that this is one of the most crucial issues facing the world church today. Praise God, the world is in many places becoming more affluent and better educated. But this means that more and more people are joining the groups we cannot reach effectively. One approach I hear advocated repeatedly suggests that we can write off the educated and affluent as somehow hardened and beyond saving. That hardly seems true to the gospel commission. And I, for one, am not prepared to let go of my children and grandchildren so easily.
I propose that the great question confronting the church today is whether we of the Elijah movement will heed the Elijah message: "He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers." Not only do I think this is the central truth confronting the church today, I believe it is the central truth confronting the affluent and educated society of the 21st century. Many of today's hot-button issues look quite differently if viewed through the lense of the Elijah message. The Allemanni and the Heruli faded into insignificance compared to righteousness by faith. Let's learn from that experience, and turn our attention to central issues, not peripheral ones.
![]() | Ed Dickerson | "Grounds for Belief" author Ed Dickerson has worked with young people since age 19, teaching at every level from grade school to grad school--both in the United States and abroad. His writing and speaking are peppered with references to science, psychology, literature, movies--even pop culture, making Christianity accessible to secular audiences, and Adventism exciting for Christian audiences. Ed holds an M.A. in Religious Education from Andrews Universtity and has published scores of articles around the world. |


Comments
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
So the question becomes what do we do about it? If 19th century traditionalism does not work can we find local churches willing to try Progressive Adventist ideas? Or maybe we should simply ask will our local churches allow Progressive Adventists to be anything more than pew warmers? Excluded from any real leadership so that the traditional Adventists can declare them to be simply cultural Adventists.
Actually a couple of weeks ago I sent a letter to two local church Pastors asking them where their church stood on the idea of allowing Progressive Adventists to be actively involved in their churches aside from the adult Sabbath school classes. One ignored the letter and the other acknowledged it but claimed to be too busy to answer the question (at least for now). I will give it a couple more weeks then I will at least post the letter that I sent them. But right now it looks to me that though we have a Progressive Adventist presence on the internet for most of us in the US we have no local church that we can respect or that respects us.
Which leads to the question of what can you do when you can't do anything? The answer is you wait for the traditionalists to do something even though from experience they will choose the wrong action. The GC has it appears chosen it's course as you can see by the GYC2009 question and answer session on my blog: http://cafesda.blogspot.com/2010/01/gyc2009-hope-for-traditionals-dispair.html
Of course when you ask the question of the Traditionalists what they plan to do to help keep on young people they have no answer. (I also asked that of my church leaders a year ago...again no answer). We are in a destructive loop.
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
I'm always amused by people complaining of 19th Century Adventism, implying that Ellen White is hopelessly irrelevant now that it's been almost a century since her passing. Hello?? Christ, Peter, Paul, and John have all been dead for almost 2000 years, yet their sayings and writings are still authoritative for Christians. Christianity has been around for two millennia, but that doesn't mean that it is out of date.
I'm also amazed at people who think Adventism should be a sort of congenital disease that is passed from parents to children 100% of time. The truth is that Adventism is a belief system that one is free to accept or reject when one reaches maturity. It is inonceivable that all children of Adventist families will remain in the church. If they did, you'd know that something was terribly wrong, that we were living in some sort of weird, "stepford wives" parallel universe.
The real problem is not that many people decide that Adventism is not for them and leave the church; rather, the real problem is that many people decide that Adventism is not for them, and don't leave the church, but try to remake the church in the image of their own infidelity and agnosticism (which explains sites like this one and Spectrum).
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
Progressie Adventism, however it is defined, is a relatively recent development within the denomination. It's unrealistic to expect churches born of traditional conservatism to allow different elements to now influence their direction.
While it is possible for a church full of legalists to welcome antinomianism, it is unlikely. It could cause a lot of problems for a local pastor who has been charged with maintaining the status quo. Why would someone like Doug Batchelor, who has built his brand on a particular interpretation of Adventism, switch interpretations or allow someone of a different bent to influence his supporters? It's like expecting parents to allow individuals hostile to their values to influence their children.
There is something unsavory about the idea, frankly, as if a fifth column is at work in the church.
Most of us are simply too lazy to put forth the effort to establish a congregation upon ideas we hold dear, to develop our own brand, if you will. Those who do that have every right to influence their friends as they see fit.
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
" It appears to me that we are so fascinated by the process of allocating tribes to toes, of arguing over Allemanni and Heruli, that we simply cannot be bothered with the fact that we are suffering catastrophic internal bleeding."
Yes, this 'navel gazing' and making sure our members toe the status quo line is so important to many. The forest is missed through the trees when so much importance is placed on being the 'remnant' and preserving our distinct beliefs on the investigative judgement, the spirit of prophecy and how good we can keep the law that a relationship with Christ seems to be secondary to how good an Adventist you can be.
While so many are trying hard to be the standard police, making sure that jewelery is kept in check, meat is kept away from potluck, drums are kept out of the church and no fresh interpretation of scripture that disagrees with what Sister White and the pioneers set in stone is allowed into our Sabbath Schools, our youth and new converts are heading out the door fast. They are fleeing the 'Heruli and Allemani' hair splitters and a faith that seems more like the Amish than a vibrant Christian organization. They can't seem to understand why we claim to have all the truth and can't change and grow instead of staying stagnant with no theological growth or understanding except for what was deemed as unalterated truth 140 years ago.
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From David C Read
Sister White is not an apostle, nor are her writings canon. They are counsel. Counsel that may or may not be applicable to all nations at all times. Counsel which many times was determined by her own cultural norms and also dictated according to a 19th century mindset to a 19th century, growing denomination.
The cultural norms that Peter and Paul dictated were not set in stone for all eternity and they did not place near salvific importance to it. I don't see too many Christians today using Paul to bang people over the heads with on women wearing plaited hair or speaking in church. Yet we are practically told that to not heed even Sister White's cultural counsel is to put our salvation in peril. For some strange reason we are expected as 'good SDAs' to heed EGW's words on playing sports, playing chess, going to movie theatres and many, many other cultural norms that have no meaning or relevance today.
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
RonCorson,
I am quite seriously interested in what ideas progressives might want to try in their local churches, and what prevents them from doing so (I assume you don't simply mean being made part of the institutional power structure.). I wholeheartedly endorse the notion of experimental religion, and agree that, at least in North America, we haven't been able to find very effective ways of imparting a passion for Christ and the Church to our young people. Presumably, Third World evangelism isn't what you have in mind. What ideas do progressives have for leading the unchurched to Christ? I can't imagine any pastor not being all ears when it comes to ideas about how to instill a passion for Christ.
I'm not hostile toward Progressives. In fact, I quite enjoy dialogue with them, and have no desire to define them out of the Church. But it is my sense that progressive religious ideas tend to deny, or at least marginalize a transcendent God of revelation and special providence. The progressive religious ideas I am aware of have not exactly resulted in robust growth for other protestant denominations over the past century.
May I cynically suggest one surefire way for progressives to gain leadership positions in their churches: Show that you love your church as it is, not just as you wish it to be, by faithful and generous financial support. I guarantee your pastor will start listening.
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
Nathan
I think you apply state the problem when you say:
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I'm not hostile toward Progressives. In fact, I quite enjoy dialogue with them, and have no desire to define them out of the Church. But it is my sense that progressive religious ideas tend to deny, or at least marginalize a transcendent God of revelation and special providence. The progressive religious ideas I am aware of have not exactly resulted in robust growth for other protestant denominations over the past century.
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You begin like many traditional Adventsits by saying how you are not hostile toward Progressives then you deride them because they don't hold to your version of inspiration. Rather like when I was told I could not help lead the Earliteen Class my daughter attended because I did not believe in inerrant scriptures or Ellen White as an authorataive prophet.
Are Progressive Adventists the same as liberal Methodists? Of course not What Progressive Adventists offer is far different from anything in mainline Christianity. After all it was then Progressive Adventists would quickly leave the Adventist church. Progressive Adventism has a totally different view of God then the mainline Protestant churches which still believe in eternal torture in hell and who believe in the idea that Jesus had to pay the penalty of death as a substitution to appease the wrath of God. Most Christian churches and that includes traditional Adventists distort the character of God into something contemptable and our youth see that and they rebel against the idea of a God who is claimed to be love but tortures and kills people who are disobedient to Him both in the past and in the future. You may continue to believe that God was regretful of creating mankind so he destroyed all but those in the ark with a flood, including all the animals in the world outside the ark but you have to admit that is an incredibly foolish and wasteful way of punishing humanity. Scientfically doubtful and geologically unverifiable. Same with the story of the tower of Babel where God was angered that men were able to accomplish things by working together. Stories that don't fit at all with the way God is presented by Jesus Christ. So maybe that difference in interpretation of the traditional "transcendent God of revelation and special providence" is something that is needed for the progression of Christianity, traditional Adventism is certainly not meeting our youth or adult needs but they refuse to contemplate anything other than what they have believed.
Over a year ago I sent an Email to the folks in charge at my church. In it I asked how they would respond to the 5 previous articles on this blog. How will Traditional Adventism seek to retain our young people in the church? A portion of my email stated:
I arrived at this decision when I was thinking what the traditional Adventist proposes to do to help youth stay in the Adventist church. I looked on the internet and found precious little that dealt with the principles involved in retaining American youth in the SDA church.After I read the article copied below, I was thinking, as it identifies relationship as the big thing how does one build a relationship if they deny the ability of others to hold differing views. Can one have a relationship with the young person while demanding that they accept all your beliefs and doctrines? What does a young person feel if they find that their teacher is not allowed to teach anything other then generic SDA beliefs or worse yet a subset of SDA beliefs which are ill identified or have to be officially presented by the SDA organization? Basically it comes down to how is a relationship built or maintained if the relationship is primarily built upon either side accepting a specific set of doctrines? How does a method of Traditional SDA doctrine only related classes, work with visitors or the friends of youth, do they feel that their church is open enough to accept their non SDA friends or will they feel that their teachers can't handle alternative Christian views? Perhaps, and I hope this is not the case but it likely is, we don't want to expose our young people to other possibilities and ideas because we have assumed that we have all the truth and if it is not part of our doctrines then it has no value, that the possibility that we could be wrong is too terrible to even contemplate.
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
I'm sorry, Ron, to have apparently offended you by suggesting that SDA progressives take a dim view of a transcendent God of special providence and self-revelation. I take it you disagree with that characterization?
It sounds like the faith covenant that many in your local church share is not one to which you subscribe. Church is a voluntary relationship. Why don't you just find others in your church - or elsewhere - who share your passion, and form or join a different faith community? That's what I'd do if I felt I couldn't serve God and experience His love in my church.
Traditional Adventism isn't for you, and apparently it works for most members in your local church. You sound like you really have an ax to grind. Can you understand why many parents of earliteens might be uneasy with having someone teach their children who has an agenda to deconstruct the faith paradigm they as parents wish to impart? Should they not have that right?
I agree with you that traditional Adventism holds little promise for retaining our young people. But I still don't think there is any evidence to support the notion that liberal mainline protestant theology, which you espouse, strengthens faith and church loyalty.
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
Ron, you are mistaken in believing that most of the mainline churches still hold to the substitutionary atonement. Most liberal churches embrace the moral influence theory. I remember that this issue came up a few years ago, during the box office run of Mel Gibson's "Passion of the Christ." Obviously the RCC emphasizes the salvific merit of Christ's physical suffering, which is why this was so emphasized in Gibson's film. But Protestants, while being united as to the significance of the cross, are divided as to just what happened, with conservatives embracing substitutionary atonement, and liberals hewing to the moral influence theory or variants thereof. In fact, the moral influence theory is making strong inroads into conservative denominations.
As to hell, you're not going to hear much about it--eternally burning, burning, glowing, or slightly warming--in a liberal church. They no more believe in a literal hell than in a literal flood, or a literal creation, or literal angels and demons.
So if those are your two reasons why need a "progressive Adventism," then we obviously don't need a progressive Adventism.
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
Nathan wrote:
And after I wrote how Progressive Adventism is not like Liberal mainline Protestant theology. Well, because you don't know anything about Progressive Adventism is not really the problem. the problem is you don't want to know. Which is fine for you because you believe that traditional Adventism has the truth and no need to learn or question their beliefs.
The good news is that you at least realize this leaves traditional Adventism in the position of losing their own children. At some point in time you will therefore be forced to re-evaluate your positions or watch your traditional Adventism die. Some of us it appears just think a head more than others.
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
"You may continue to believe that God was regretful of creating mankind so he destroyed all but those in the ark with a flood, including all the animals in the world outside the ark but you have to admit that is an incredibly foolish and wasteful way of punishing humanity. Scientfically doubtful and geologically unverifiable. Same with the story of the tower of Babel where God was angered that men were able to accomplish things by working together. Stories that don't fit at all with the way God is presented by Jesus Christ."
Ron, Do you seriously expect to be given a voice among people of faith when you make statements such as the ones above? The pastors in the area of Californina where I lived were very "conservative." They might be characterized as legalistic perfectionists. Amazing Facts also leans heavily in that direction. AF is a major rainmaker, if the report I heard is true.
As a Bible believing Christian, I consider statements such as yours absolutely toxic. Unfortunately, you are not the only one who considers the history contained in Scripture fanciful. The story of Noah and the flood is a suitable illustration of Christ's work on the cross. Noah, affixed to an object of wood, with an opening in its side. The boat, with its precious cargo, was tossed about the sea of God's wrath. A dove was sent forth. Do you not see the typology of the cross in that event? The Bible stories, properly understood, are actually a faithful representation of Christ.
Christian Adventism used to offer the labors of men such as Paul Bork. He spent his career, at least part of it, introducing the writings of Moses to his students. He did it in a loving and spiritual way. As I understood his efforts, he was not at all ignorant of critical theories of Genesis, yet he chose to develop the redemptive elements of Scripture rather than introduce a type of retrograde faith [unbelief] to his classes.
God willing, in a few weeks, I'm going with a group of beginning Bible students into Genesis and Exodus. I hope there will not be the slightest mention of critical approaches to Scripture in those readings. Why? Because our purpose is not served by introducing or discussing those views of Scripture.
A few years ago, I attended a GNU seminar on Christ in all the Scriptures. There was little discussion of the things you apparently consider important. There was a rich SPIRITUAL feast served, one which revealed Jesus, his death and resurrection and the outpouring of the Holy spirit. There was tremendous redemptive value in those lessons. That's what is important to me. Redemption.
I have no problems with how God is revealed in the OT. I don't consider him "foolish" or "wasteful." I marvel that another flood like event hasn't carried more than a billion people away, people who appear ro be occupied with evil continually, as were those in the time of Noah.
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
Nathan asks Why I thought he was traditional. The reason is this comment you made:
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Traditional Adventism isn't for you, and apparently it works for most members in your local church. You sound like you really have an ax to grind. Can you understand why many parents of earliteens might be uneasy with having someone teach their children who has an agenda to deconstruct the faith paradigm they as parents wish to impart? Should they not have that right?
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The point of this discussion is that traditional Adventism does not work, that is why we are losing our young people. It is true that I can understand why traditionals don't want their children to hear anything but traditionalism. Just like I understand racists don't want anyone deconstructing their racism. But that is hardly a reason to persist in narrow minded thinking. So your statement made it appear that you were contend with traditional Adventism carring on its failed traditions and that we should all just fall in line and accept it because it is what they want.
Now that I see that you claim to be other, that is not a progressive Adventist (though you clearly hold to Progressive Adventist ideas such as: "serious problems with many fundamental Adventist teachings - investigative judgment, the remnant, spirit of prophecy, literal reading of the creation story. ") I suspect that you hold to the unknown middle position which you define as Evangelical/Congregational. Who knows what that means however. Most of the definitions of Evangelical are the same as Fundamentalist and congregational simply means groups not bound under denominational rule.
If the progressives and the traditionals are impotent the group stuck in the middle is most likely even more impotent. As they point to the other sides and say they don't know what they are doing yet they in the middle stand for nothing at all.
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
Read wrote in part: "The real problem is not that many people decide that Adventism is not for them and leave the church; rather, the real problem is that many people decide that Adventism is not for them, and don't leave the church, but try to remake the church in the image of their own infidelity and agnosticism (which explains sites like this one and Spectrum)."
So true and liberals will rarely admit that their goal when they say "progressive" they really mean -- make the church a place where no one feels convicted of sin, where everyone can have fun and have the illusion that they are saved "in" their sin not "from" their sin. I have before suggested that those who believe the SDA church is on such a wrong track that they start and run their own church. It is my prayer that those who excoriate the SDA church and its beliefs would see the potential damage to themselves and others by such activities.
Truth Seeker
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
Nathan wrote:
The problem with your assertion is that neither side will agree that your middle is the only group that is Christ centered and cross focused. It is simply a graituitous assertion. In reality if you ask either a Progressive Adventist or a Traditional Adventist they will both say that they are Christ centered. So are you calling them liars? the other problem is when you say Cross focused in the evangelical community that usually means substitutionary atonement rather than really being cross focused upon the key component of the cross in reconcilation. Most evangelicals hold the assumption that their particular atonement theory is the only valid view.
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
Re: The Allemani and the Heruli?
Nathan, You have come quite close to the real issue. Christ and the Cross. For lack of that, people of all kinds disassociate themselves from faith communities. An unfortunate aspect of Adventism is that it offers people many options for becoming "righteous." Sabbath observance, health reform, dress reform, country living, temperance and other matters have somehow obscured the cross of Christ in the belief system of too many people.
Years ago, at PUC, it was rumored that a well known pastor, invited as a Sabbath guest speaker, was going to bring some special message. The special message? Time to give up eating cheese.
One former missionary in Africa described the usual compromise of Adventist believers when faced with persecution from communist interests in a certain country. He sadly lamented that members of another Christian church stood bravely for Jesus in the face of persecution. Certainly he was glad for the faith of those who denied not their Savior. He was deeply disturbed by the lack of courage and conviction among Adventists.
David Lin wrote a scathing denunciation of Adventist work in China, describing nearly landslide apostasy when Mao came to power. Those who became Adventists to get a job in an Adventist hospital became Communists to keep the job when the hospital was nationalized. In another series of articles, he described his own compromise when faced with adversity for his faith.
Adventists are not alone in this area. Melanchthon has been forever villified by many Lutherans for compromise, preserved in the Interim documents, when the Protestant cause in Germany was apparently facing annihilation at the hands of Charles V.
Certainly Melanchthon's religious experience was not short on gospel emphasis. It's unfortunate, for those of us who would fault Adventism, when people like Melanchthon and Briconnet, Bishop of Meaux , compromise or apostasize in the face of persecution. The account of Briconnet's experience, recounted in Wylie's "History of Protestantism" should give every Christian pause.
A friend asked me to get him a Bible in a language which was not commonly understood where he lives. He didn't want people to know he was reading the Bible for fear of being laughed at. He feared being laughed at? No wonder people apostasize in the face of real adversity.
While solid gospel preaching may seem like the answer, there are other issues at work. Issues which are deep in the soul of every individual who is faced with choosing between Jesus and adversity. Did Judas or Peter have any lack of clear Christian teaching? They ALL forsook him and fled.
People who leave the church, yet stand for Christian principles in the world are doing their share, in some cases, much more so than those who remain, "faithfully," in the pew.