7 Questions for...Sam McKee

Posted August 10th, 2009 by Marcel Schwantes

Editor's note: As part of our in-depth look at the Mission Catalyst Network of churches, we bring you our exclusive, follow-up interview with Epikos pastor Sam McKee. Part 1 of our provocative interview double-header is with Ron Gladden, director of Mission Catalyst. You will find it available in our Summer 2009 print issue being delivered to your homes this month. Not a subscriber? Click here!

By Marcel Schwantes

In 2007, Mission Catalyst birthed a congregation dubbing itself as "non-denominational." The Vancouver, WA based Epikos (which translated from the Greek is "word" or "story") is another in a growing list in MC's network--an association of outreach-focused, grace-oriented independent churches that embrace the core beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Epikos appears to separate itself from the rest, though. In the first interview with Gladden, I asked him if there was a "star church" in his network he likes to brag about. Epikos was a clear choice and perhaps fitting, since he is on staff as its "Directional Leader." But there was one problem early on, Gladden will tell you: Epikos had no lead pastor on the frontlines to produce maximum kingdom impact. So he went out and got one of the Adventist church's brightest young stars--pastor Sam McKee, formerly senior pastor of Sunnyvale Seventh-day Adventist church in Northern California. Problem solved--at least for Epikos.

Epikos started as a worship gathering of six people in a living room. Its weekly worship now draws an attendance that sometimes reaches over 110. About 18-20 come from an Adventist background, many of those being unchurched for significant amounts of time. The stories of people joining have been called "amazing", like the story of rugby player Silas, who was recently baptized after meeting McKee on a football field. [watch video of ocean baptism]

Pastor McKee paints a good picture of the Epikos story on another video that obviously targets the hip and urban unchurched of Vancouver. His simple and down to earth story-telling delivery, he'll tell you, is much like the core ethos of Epikos. He wants to enter into people's stories as a blessing, no strings attached, no agenda, in hopes that by blessing them, they might want to know about the Bigger Story--that of a God that loves them exactly where they are. The formula appears to be working, but is it sustainable? I asked McKee several questions that drill deeper into the mission of a Mission Catalyst church.

You left a successful pastoral position at the Sunnyvale Seventh-day Adventist Church in the heart of the Silicon Valley that, you've admitted, had a great staff, an open-minded Christ-centered board, and plenty of financial security. What could you not do at Sunnyvale that you are now free to do at Epikos?

I have to answer this on two levels. On a spiritual level, my wife and I felt an unmistakable calling to move to the Portland area to plant a church for the unchurched. We've always known that Ron Gladden would be the best mentor in our faith context for doing that. Ron has sat at the feet of amazing leaders from various parts of the Body of Christ and learned a great deal.
On a structural level, the Adventist Church has not been restructured in more than 100 years and the world has changed more in the past 100 years than in the past 1,000 years. People are not brand-conscious any more. Unchurched people are typically drawn to the church in their city that is changing the most lives and then they adopt the belief system of that group, whether it be Pentecostal, Calvinist or other. And the truth is that in most cities the Adventist Church is not the most life-changing church. And I don't think that's due to theology, I think it's due to methodology and structure and sometimes pride--that us-and-them mentality toward other Christians and the unchurched.

But the structural one is the clearest. We typically don't invest where God is at work. We often tax where God is at work to keep the dead edges and the middle management bureaucracy alive. Mission Catalyst is a flat organization where the vast majority of funds stay local on the front lines of where unchurched people live. In turn, local congregations are encouraged to give generously to support orphanages, churches and community service locally and abroad.

Pastors of other denominations in Sunnyvale were amazed at all the amazing things our church was doing. They were even more amazed when they found out that we sent close to $600k in tithe away and only got back 1.75 salaries. Other churches in town that were half our size had twice our staff and were able to do amazing things to transform lives and meet needs we couldn't even begin to address. We were hitting a glass ceiling with what we could do. And since I left I've heard from pastors from some of the top churches in the denomination saying they hit the same ceiling. They see God at work, they see the potential, they beg for funds and support to fuel the fire, but the structure doesn't allow for that. And it's not necessarily that the conference president isn't in tune; his hands might be tied.

Almost everyone agrees the system needs restructuring. There are churches from every possible doctrinal stand point who have stellar churches that leaders from all branches of Christianity flock to because they're so amazing at sharing Jesus. We don't see thousands of people flocking to an Adventist Church to figure out how to share Jesus with the world. They come to Adventism when they have cancer and they need the proton treatment at Loma Linda. They come to Adventists when they read National Geographic and they want nine more earthly years, not eternal life.

My conviction was that this unique and graceful, Christ-centered theology was not a hindrance that would keep a church from growing. It's a structural issue. In some parts of Adventism, it is a pride issue, an us-and-them mentality. But I think that prideful attitude is passing away in the new generation.

I hope that when our church plant goes well that it will open up new opportunities for some conference leaders to have the freedom to creatively innovate within the system and invest where God is at work and really pour their resources into a few powerful church plants in major cities within the system.

MC states loyalty to the Adventist message and mission, yet Epikos calls itself a "nondenominational Christian church" with ties to Willowcreek Association. Can you have it both ways?

What is the Adventist message and mission? Last time I checked, John the Baptist was an Adventist. His message and mission was to point to the One who was coming. He didn't point to himself or his organization and try and prove with charts and time prophecies that he was the real deal. His message was not "I am the right prophet and this is the right church. Let me tell you the five signs of the true church and why the other guys are wrong." It was, ‘Someone is coming who is so perfect and so amazing and so graceful and so powerful that I'm not even fit to tie his shoes. He's the way, the truth, and the life. It's not about me and my movement. It's about Him and His word.'

George Knight says that all organizations start out focused on a powerful vision and later on they get focused on maintaining the institution. It's the vision of Jesus' coming and His amazing, life-changing truth that we should be worried about and spreading that amazing grace to the ends of the earth.

The Willowcreek Association is a diverse community of Christians from various theological backgrounds who are learning from each other the best methodologies for reaching and transforming the world. There's no push for theological uniformity just a humble John 17 mentality that shows the world a united group of people who love Jesus. Jesus said that unity (not uniformity) would convince the world that he was real. (John 17:23)

On your website, "distinctives" like the Sabbath and the State of the Dead are incorporated into the core beliefs of Epikos, re-written in unchurched lingo. To clarify beliefs, are you teaching the fundamental Sabbath belief as a special test in end times (Rev.14:7 ) or simply as a day to "press pause" and physically recharge? (Gen 2:1-3)

Our goal is to prepare people to follow and serve Jesus in any and every context. I think professor Jon Paulien makes a great case for the Sabbath being an important issue in the end times. However, I would say that Adventists have over-magnified this in their discipleship. If the first coming is any example, the events leading up to the Second Coming may come as a surprise even to many of us who know our Bibles.

I've seen some freaked-out Adventists who spooked their neighbors and relatives with a myopic and strange focus on their take on the Mark of the Beast. Has it helped them share Jesus or has it hurt their witness? Has it made them more loving and their faith more winsome to their family, friends and neighbors or less? I think they wasted their breath talking about something that may or may not happen (their exact framework of the end times) when they could have been talking about something that did happen (the cross) and something that will happen (Jesus coming to right the wrongs and raise the dead.)

" I've seen some freaked-out Adventists who spooked their neighbors and relatives with a myopic and strange focus on their take on the Mark of the Beast. "

If we get people to fall in love with Jesus, grow deep in knowledge of His word and savor that day of grace every week, don't you think those people will be ready for almost anything evil can throw at them? Teaching people to be prepared for one type of battle leaves them unprepared for the variety that life will throw at them. Teaching them to love and follow Jesus will prepare them for any issue they face. (Take the prophet Daniel for instance. He was persecuted for simply praying as many believers in communist countries were persecuted for basic Christian practices. I know of some places right now that are facing endtimes-like situations that have nothing to do with Sabbath. There are atheistic regimes that are killing pastors for preaching Jesus. In Rwanda a few years ago, it must have felt like the end times. But the issue there was racial and tribal. The most relevant verse from Revelation for that challenge would have been where it says that ‘every nation, tribe, people, and language" will be gathered before Christ (7:9). That simple idea of every tribe being precious to Christ was the present truth they needed most to follow Jesus in that time of tribulation. Matthew 25 says that the testing truth at the end of time is how well we care for the least of these.

We need to show people how to read and understand the Scriptures and to live them out in love, no matter what the cost. Then they'll be prepared for anything.

With respect to Adventist tithe structures, give some examples of how an MC church like Epikos manages its finances with integrity and responsibility?

For one thing, I never see the money and I can't sign checks! We have regular financial reports that are evaluated in staff meeting and we're working toward having our financials available for the church at large. People are more confident and inspired to give where there is transparency and they can see clearly that the money is going straight to the mission of blessing and redeeming people.

All MC churches are encouraged to give 10% to the network so new churches can be planted in other cities. We're also called to commit to establishing mission projects among the needy locally and abroad.

A couple from Epikos started an orphanage for AIDS orphans in a zero-income area of Uganda. We also support a Russian Orphanage. We take a group of teens to build a house in Mexico during spring break.

What is one dramatic example of how the Holy Spirit has moved to further the mission of Epikos?

I can't keep it to one. I have never been more scared or dependent on God in all my life. When I moved here, we had 15-20 people meeting in a library. I told God, "Unless you perform miracles everyday, we will fail." And God has kept his end of the deal. I could tell you the story of the tattooed rugby player who met us on the football field and a few months later was baptized into Christ in the Pacific Ocean (picture below). Or the Whole Foods store artist who was totally unchurched but now creates artwork in church while I'm speaking.

We're not changing the world, but we're trying to transform one little part of it at a time. A few weeks ago, we had five out of the ten houses on our street at our church. Two of my neighbors have been baptized. Nine of them attend every week. At the end of this month, my State Farm insurance agent is getting baptized. My loan officer serves in our children's ministry and her four kids are getting baptized soon. It's a year later and we've got about 100 people coming every week and 50-70% of them were previously unchurched.

Okay, the one story I'll tell you is this: A friend gave me an article in the local paper about a 14-year-old recording artist in our area. She has 300,000 plays on her songs on MySpace, and he said I should invite her to sing. I prayed about it and knew it wasn't the right time. So I filed the article carefully. (Actually it floated around my car for two months.) Then one day I saw it and felt convicted that she should sing at church that weekend. So I sent her a MySpace message. Meanwhile, this talented singer was pretty much unchurched. Her mom was a Christian but she spent weekends with her Dad who is anti-Christian. So out of nowhere she says to her mom, "You know I'd really love to sing in a church sometime." Two days later she got a MySpace message from a pastor inviting her to Epikos Church to sing. She came, she sang, and God kicked down the walls between Him and her. She said to me that night when I finished speaking, "I want to dedicate my music and my life to God and I want to get baptized at this church." I can't tell you how grateful we are to God for miracles like this. We're totally lost without Him and His grace.

Can you see yourself ever going back to denominational employment, and if so, what would it take?

I would be happy to serve anywhere God calls me to serve. I thank God everyday that the Adventist Church shared Jesus and the awesome truths of His word with me when I was 18 years old. This has shaped my life and walk with Christ so much. I also thrived spiritually with the excellent professors at the seminary at Andrews University.

I still love speaking in Adventist settings but some of those doors have closed due to the innovative mission God has called my family to. It surprised me that at a leadership conference, they would have speakers from various backgrounds but rescinded the invitation for me to speak simply because some leaders in the bureaucracy are still upset with Ron. It reminds me of the disciples in Mark 9 who wanted to stop some guy from driving out demons in Jesus' name because he wasn't part of their organized group. Jesus said, "Whoever is not against us is for us."

A friend of mine who is one of the top VPs at Apple grew up with Rick Warren. He told me that some of the leaders of the Southern Baptists were ticked off at Rick when he set off to plant Saddleback Church because he wasn't going to have a denominational name on the sign. Instead of blessing him, they chewed him out and dissed him. Years later when he was successful, they basically said, 'We've been behind you the whole way!' I've had some amazingly institutional folk respond in negative ways but I've also had some top leaders in the Adventist Church tell me how proud they are of my wife and I for taking this risk for sharing Jesus and these unique biblical truths with people in a new way in this grassroots movement.

My wife and I will serve wherever God calls us to serve, and we're certain He's called us right here, right now, and we're loving it!

You like stories. What do you value about the power of story telling as a way to minister to the unchurched?

Stories are powerful. And we want to listen to people's stories before we get to telling ours. We truly value what unchurched people have to say about life. Jesus spent 30 years listening before he starting public speaking. But when he began to speak, he told stories.

Matthew 13:34 says, "Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable." Look around in most traditional church services, the most exciting part is the children's story. That's when every eye looks up and every one starts to listen. Everybody loves a story. In addition, in a postmodern world, a personal story is the best way to convey truth. In John 9, the blind man said to some skeptical folk, "I was blind, but now I see." How do you argue with that? So I tell stories when I preach, people in our church share their stories live and in video format. You can see and hear some of those powerful stories on our YouTube Epikos Church page.

To fully understand where Mission Catalyst is headed, and how they can reach exponentially more people for Jesus, click here to read the latest version of "The Pivotal Design"--a booklet that explains why some churches prevail and others fail.